Eagle’s Entrails! Deer Droppings! and Elephant Phlatulence!

I think the word “professional” is a part of the problem. Just because your job is a programmer doesn’t quite make you a professional programmer.

At least I always get the sense that “professional something” means you’re good at whatever it is.

I couldn’t agree more. Even in relatively smart companies that seem to understand the value of clean code, TDD and agile practices I’ve seen cert hiring happen.

Just like maven forces the ideology of building software there should be something for all development practices. For example Joel Spolsky’s test.

Firstly, your Clapton reference highlights a very real problem with any kind of measure of merit. I’ve played guitar for 21 years and I can tell you that he’s massively overrated as a musician. Now, if you’d said “toured with Frank Zappa”... ;-)

My idea of a great software developer might differ from many other people’s idea of a great software developer. There are many great developers who are considered poor developers by folk who see things very differently. I’m sure many interviews end with both parties walking away thinking the other person doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

So any system of seperating wheat from chaff would have to take it into account that these different schools exist and that there is no widely accepted consensus on anything in what we do at the moment.

Maybe a dozen likeminded people could get together and agree on, for example, what it means to be doing TDD effectively, but as soon as we try to apply that on a larger scale we’re either hindered by these differences or we end up with a lowest-common-denominator qualification trying to please everybody.

As for interviewing people (programmers or musicians): what’s wrong with asking them to play you something? After all, if you were hiring a juggler, would you sit them down and ask them about their juggling history? References are worthless because we all know that employers are reluctant to say anything bad for fear of being sued, and will often give glowing references for someone they’re hoping will move on soon.

The program I’ve been running with the BBC and other clients is entirely built on the premise that one man’s idea of X is different to another’s, and that the only effective way to assess ability is to ask them to “whip it out” (as Zappa famously instructed Ian Underwood in his audition for the Mothers)

I think I will have nightmares about that video :P

I agree with the low value of most developer certificates. But I hope we’ll move beyond what you’re proposing.

I’m all for the Medical/Laws route. The difference in level of education between those and IT is staggering. Here’s how those professions would translate to IT:

Just because you know most the law books by heart (code syntax and libs) doesn’t mean you can practice law (write production code). Just because you’ve spend 6 years studying and practicing medicine (writing compilers and some development experience), doesn’t mean you can do brain surgery without supervision (work on a complex IT project).

Only after years of study, guidance, practice, trials and training on the job can one really enter the profession of IT. If we value our customers and their long term interest, this is the only way we can raise the bar for (production) code quality.

Even Ligeti’s Lux Aeterna is too joyful a soundtrack for this coding quagmire.

Something like Suicidal Angels’s Eternal Darkness would have been more appropriate.

(Yes, I’m being cheeky)

FML! Please, tell us how many LoC are there (I estimate 200k). Are you sure the code was not automatically generated?

Must be tiring knocking down so many straw men, though I guess it gets easier when you add the false dichotimy of “certification or intenship”.

Sooner or later, I guessing there will be a parallel of the Professional Engineer exam for software engineers. That would be a certification worth having.

The code was real, though obfuscated. It was two tightly coupled classes. Total about 30KLOC.

What if we… asked them to show us how they work?

In a previous job I could introduce the TestFirstChallenge as a test for our candidates. It worked really well.

We could also make a codecamp and let people show how they work with others, under pressure… like in “real life”.

I would have used Nine Inch Nails’, Head Like a Hole.

I agree with Jason and Machiel. We are still such a young, growing, and rapidly changing industry, but the true professional route is the answer; what we do is far too important for it not to be.

In the UK, there is a professional organisation that requires a fairly high level of entry: a degree, a set of exams, n years experience, a few references, an interview with a panel. Full membership gives you Chartered status through one of the major engineering bodies; you become a Chartered Engineer (CEng).

However, it’s been rare, ime, for anyone to show interest in that level of professionalism, let alone demand it.

While businesses continue to delude themselves that IT is a construction job requiring labourers, they will not be motivated to demand high levels of craftsmanship and formal professionalism, and will suffer the consequences. Those that do, and engage equally, will reap significant rewards.

It’s one thing have a recognised achievement, it’s quite another to get others to recognise and understand its meaning and value.

I think Krzysztof Pendereckis Threnondy for the Victims of Hiroshima (http://open.spotify.com/track/6P0if1ljm1RxDrMZtueRhs) would be better music to the video ;-)

Was the electrician who rewired your house certified? If not, would you have used her/him?

The certified electrician did not rewire your house. His employee did.

Greg,

Was the painter who painted your living room certified? If not, would you have used her/him? Mine wasn’t. But, they were definitely recommended by someone I trusted.

Picking a specific field that happens to have certifications without an intense comparison of how what they do is similar to what we do doesn’t add a lot to the certification conversation. I don’t think that software development is at all like being an electrician rewiring a house.

Great article – nice humor!

I totally agree, that certifications can not be the main criteria for checking the qualification of somebody. Interviews, references, etc. will be much better for sure.

But I think that certifications will do a good job for showing that somebody has the (basic) knowlegde of a specific topic, where knowledge != competence – e.g. passing the Sun Certified Java Programmer does not say that you are a good Java developer, but you can be sure that the person who has passed the test has knowledge about the basic Java concepts, the API etc.

Same with driver license – can somebody really drive a car if he passed the test for a driver license (and I think this is much easier in the US than in Europe :-))? No, but he has basic knowledge how to drive a car.

Well said Marc Cooper: “While businesses continue to delude themselves that IT is a construction job requiring labourers, they will not be motivated to demand high levels of craftsmanship and formal professionalism, and will suffer the consequences. Those that do, and engage equally, will reap significant rewards.”

I don’t blame the hapless, untrained, spaghetti code developer, I blame the hiring manager and institution that hired him/her and put him to work on production code without investing in training and mentoring. Whether or not someone has a developer certification isn’t going to phase those who undervalue Software Engineering as a discipline to begin with.

I’ve got mixed feelings on interviewing engineers. Yes you can find out their past experiences and that is useful. But I’ve had to throw in a test (even a simple one) to get a real feeling of their programming skill. Some boast of their OO knowledge and then struggle with a fairly simple application. Is this a common problem or do I just suck as an interviewer?

I’ve yet to interview someone who said they know TDD :)

While I hate to bring the lawyers in, some of us work in places that for legal reasons are specifically prohibited from giving references. All I can do is verify that somebody did work for us during that the period in question.

We don’t need flimsy certifications- we need apprenticeships and residents- just like the medical doctor profession. Sit with me, write your tests and code together. Learn to refactor toward code that communicates intent and minimizes defect risk. Do it for a couple of years. Keep with it, and you will learn the craft. Only then will I vouch for you.

Good use of the soundtrack from “2001, A Space Odyssey.” Haven’t heard that piece of it recently.

I like your last idea to interview candidates. Its better to give a training on OOAD afterwards. After that you can give your book on clean code.

While I have never used certifications as a hiring criteria (some of my best hires did not have certs), I’ve never hired a developer with one of the higher Microsoft certs (MCSD/MCPD) who ended up being an idiot.

I also agree that references are pretty much worthless. Unless the person is a complete moron, they are not going to provide you with someone who will be a bad reference.

In an interview, I want to see the guys go through coding examples on a whiteboard and observe problem solving – and I want them to do this both with me, and with each of my team members individually. before being put in front of a laptop with a problem to solve.

At the end, my staff and I go over the final code, ask questions, and make our final determination as a group. Our last candidate had a five hour interview process (and he accepted our offer).

The Fibonacci series has come to our aid in quickly filtering out those who aren’t worth the interview effort.

Once into the interview, then we get them to show us code that they’ve written of which they are most proud, and we get them to draw pretty pictures on the board and describe hard problems that they’ve encountered previously.

It’s a recipe for a quick cut to the chase … invaluable.

If your future objective is to put steps into Information Technology or you already have started your career in IT field, in either case it’s important for you to get some IT certification. IT certification enable you to represent yourself in front of you future or current employer as a competent candidate whose technical knowhow has been acknowledge by a reliable.George Betay is Working for CertificationKey (http://www.certificationkey.com). Its online resource for Certification preparation with 100% guarantee to pass the certification exams with their guides.

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I find it stunningly ironic that one of the follow-up posts is spam from a cert prep webstite :D

We have seen very good results by telling candidates that the interview will require that they pair with one of us using Cucumber and RSpec on a simple coding problem (that we send them in advance). We have passed on developers that had an impressive array of credentials and we have found some gems that did not.

The issue that I struggle with is how to help the developers I manage toward professional improvement. I have not heard any alternative to the problem that only a master blacksmith can guide an apprentice to mastery of blacksmithing.

I totally agree that a certification body is not the right answer. I do have some ideas on how a developer could build a portfolio that highlights her skills and demonstrates some of the things she has learned. The portfolio might be useful inside an organization that values a particular set of best practices.

But what are those best practices? I think that someone here has something in mind that could lay out a learning progression aimed toward mastery. I wish that they could share without feeling as if it was presumptuous of them.

Focusing so tightly on strict adherence to TDD and other oxymoronic agile tenets while bemoaning hiring-to-certification made my irony meter explode.

If you allow me such analogy—programming is pretty much like cooking :)... There are restaurants & fast foods. Lots of people in fact prefer fast foods, so developers are tend to cook hamburgers… And selling hamburgers is more profitable

Oh yes and you don’t need expensive certification to be hired to cook hamburgers. That’s life :)

You said that we need ”... create a certification program that provides developers with the knowledge and skills that they need.” But, isn’t implicit in that the presupposition that they will use that knowledge correctly?

Perhaps those who don’t practice what they’ve learned don’t really have the knowledge; or, perhaps they just aren’t wisely using the knowledge they have garnered.

But, since actions speak louder than words, maybe we should have them show us some of their clean code, refactor some bad code, and truly “walk the walk.”

See, here is what I would like to see—a guide to mastery that isn’t tied to a certifying organization. Let people improve who want to improve. Maybe even create a course of study, and maybe even provide expert-led schools for it (Corey). A certificate would say “hey, you attended”, but lack of one would not say “don’t hire this guy.” It would be a bonus, not a requirement.

We didn’t see the build script, there’s probably a pre-build step to merge all the code into a single file in order to “optimize” compiler speed? :)

The music was perfect for the code in question. Nothing else says “monolith” quite like that!

I don’t see the humor in it. Where is that code from? Somewhere you were paid to consult for or something you dug up on the net? If it was something you were hired to help sort out then mocking it in that way doesn’t seem very professional.

The problem isn’t with the developers, the problem is with the organization that hires, or more importantly doesn’t hire the developers. I’ve been involved in several situations, small companies, and large government organizations where the cost of software development is just a line on a budget sheet, or so tied up in beaurocracy that development teams are left to make due with what they can. They pay for skill when the shiz has already hit the fan and they’re left with no other choice.

If you’re adament about helping people improve, don’t mock the programmers; spite the ignorant businesses who believe more warm seats builds code fast, or spineless managers who don’t bend every rule and risk their necks to break rules laid out in red tape to get and keep the right people for the job.

Who doesn’t interview? I label this as a west coast thing. To be honest i am a bit anti west-coast. But here in the real world I know one maybe two developers with certifications. They both are big about degrees and certs. Most companies interview me a san idividual, the ones who try to test me, I just blow off. Now I am not saying not to have a technical interview, but like you say plenty of people pass tests and give great technical answers but for me it’s all about discussion.

I ask the candidates to tell me about their software project and why the did what they did. I also want to know they understand the business side. I don’t hire resources I hire employees.

First, I think we already have a valid certification process. It’s called an undergraduate degree in computer science. If you think developers coming into the professional ranks are not qualified, I’d recommend getting involved with the accreditation process and pushing it to be expected of all comp sci programs ant universities.

Using the med school analogy, I think our undergrad is a comparable to their med school. With the current state of industry, I think a valid intern/residency program for developers won’t work. How do we know the mentor is qualified? And finally, I’d compare most industry certs to the continuing education that doctors must complete through out their career. they vary wildly in quality too.

with all due respect, one of the major aspects of this post seems pretty ridiculous. has anyone ever skipped the interview process and hired a developer based solely on certification(s)? i agree with the idea that certifications are mostly useless but i can’t overlook the fact that you seem to be suggesting that most people don’t interview candidates.

To me, the real problem is that writing and maintaining such kind of messy code is encouraged and rewarded by the management team.

The programmer who tackles the ‘complicated problem’ will get a bonus; The one who makes the job easier will get more work. That’s the reality in so many IT teams.

I think certifications exhibit that the person has some basic knowledge of the technology. Nobody should solely depend on certifications, however it gives an extra edge to get closer to the interview process.

I guess the problem is also how much you should have to pay to get hired. It’s a little artificial anyway, but how many thousands of dollars should you pay to get past the checklist stage in a job search?

I agree with Michael. The developers that wrote that bad code probably did not have degrees in Computer Science because part of attaining such a degree is passing a software design class where you learn not to do things like that.

Folks in our industry laud the medical profession for requiring competency prior to practice, but neglect to recognize that the founding achievement for such a pursuit is a degree. You have to have a degree in medicine before you can even apply for an internship. A degree in History + X years of “professional experience” doesn’t cut it because its hard to know what the professional experience entailed, whereas a recognized degree program conforms to a known set of requirements.

My hypothesis is that a big part of the problem is due to the fact that our field is so young that most of the older, more seasoned developers and managers don’t have Computer Science degrees, so they are reluctant to accept them as a requirement, because it indirectly implies that they themselves may not be qualified. I think at some point, we as an industry need to make it past that hurtle, and recognize that the founding professionals were necessarily un-certified and accept that in this day and age, someone who is ASPIRING to become a professional developer (rather than someone who is undeniably established through the trials of hercules and/or studying under Michaelangelo) should be willing to invest the time and resources to attain a bachelors degree in Computer Science. Until we come to that point, I think we are setting the bar too low and we will continue to discover these filthy messes in far too many of the codebases that we have the misfortune of encountering.

And yet some of the best code I’ve ever seen has been written by people whose degree had nothing to do with computer programming, or who carried no degree at all.

Perhaps this problem needs to be tackled from another angle. Maybe, instead of trying to modify the hiring policy, we should modify the sacking policy. Apply a sink of swim approach and simply drop anyone, at any point in the employment, who appears to be dropping the ball ? or who isn’t achieving at a level appropriate for their pay. Obviously junior staff on less pay would be given more lea way in regards to skill than a top level Architect, but they should still be expected to still have a high level of work ethic and drive.

Any thoughts ?

I personally believe it is more important the willingness of the professional to learn than what they already know. So we focus on that during our interview process… it’s not the best… but it is a start; actually when we tell people they will pair and work on a master / apprentice relationship… even to my surprise most of them just love the idea and their faces suddenly get brighter… I think the industry is pushing towards this.

Certification. About the only way I can see a useful certification would be to ask a developer to do two tasks:

1) write a set of unit tests against a given spec. 2) write a set of code against the given spec.

Developer passes if: 1) all appropriate cases are tested (not just a % coverage litmus) 2) all implemented code passes test criteria (run through pre-processed unit tests)

Tests can be customized to determine aptitude for various aspects of programming: design patterns, implementation, performance, security, maintainability, etc. Users should be able to update their aptitude and compare against others in their field in a bell curve. Come to think of it, aren’t I just recommending Top Coder rankings, Rails Rumble, MVC Melee and a few other continuous-competition, skill-testing sites?

Multiple choice questions are just rediculous for this and could never work. Board level exams would be nice too. For architect level certs it would be great to give someone a challenge, let them define a solution and then defend it in front of a board of experts. (Jonathan Goodyear and I recommended this to Microsoft years ago).

I must admit I am one of those no CS people who converted into a IT career. But the job I was previously doing was a specialism of Geology which crossed into the world of Civil Engineering. From my experience of these professions (these people are professionals) the degree education was only the start on the long journey of become a recognised professional. As a junior geological engineer I had to keep records of all my work and additional training I had undertaken on a regular quarterly basis. These records then had to be verified, discussed and signed off by a person (lets call him the mentor) who had trod the same path and was a qualified chartered engineer. The mentor was usually in the same company if and more than likely your boss. This record keeping and justifing what you had learnt on the job was part of your personal development plan that had an impact on you bonus if not met.

Before you could become a charted engineer you had to keep many years of records as well as having a formal review by the charter review board.

Yes we do have the BCS, The Chartered Institute for IT, but in my 10 years and 5 interviews in IT have I ever been asked if I was a member or was I working toward charted status? No never.

So the industry does not care about professionalism more realistically the business industry does not care about IT professionalism as it still undervalues the skills and importance IT plays in today’s business.

I think writing a charted for an IT professional will be a hard thing to do due to such wide and varied flavors of IT. But not impossible with the right group of people to do it.

We should at least be able to define a number of core workstreams of IT and define the principles of professionalism for these. You can then put in place frameworks similar to other charted body’s like Geology and Civil engineering to continuously review and feedback people as they strive to become a recognised charted software engineer, infrastructure engineer and any of streams that are defined.

But for all this to work both the business and the IT profession has to value this charted status and make it one of core parts of an IT persons development with companies.

Just on an end note can you imagine a civil engineering company letting a graduate with 5-8 years (unverified) experience design and build a 40 story building? No, yet businesses day in day out allow under qualified unprofessional IT workers to cripple their businesses.

I’ll stop there before I rant more!

I think where we go wrong is calling our certifications, certifications. In fact, we hold no value on developer certifications here. If you have one, fine, but it’s not going to get you any more pay or even a better position. If you compare the certifications in the IT field to certifications in other fields, they are much different. You have to go through a vetting process and sometimes go in front of a review board to get certified.

Microsoft has started to see the light with their “super” certifications. One I just saw recently was the SQL Server Master certification where one of the steps was going in front a panel of your peers and Microsoft employees. This is the review board of law and medical fields.

We really need to go through internships and apprenticeships before giving out any credentials. Even for the basic A+ crap. I’ve seen more PCs get screwed up from A+ techs than I have from the taught yourself to repair PCs crowd. I’ve even seen Network+ people really mangle setups that were not that complicated to begin with. If IT is really becoming the foundation of most businesses today, especially in banking, then why are we still treating the position like it is something anyone can do?

I’m having a hard time wading through the sarcasm in Uncle Bob’s post. Does he support certification? Does he support interviewing? Or does he say that neither of them works?

I agree there’s no substitute for talking to someone to find out if they have a brain, and if they will fit in with the team you’ve already got (or imagine having, if you’re building a team from scratch). I also agree that product certification like the MS* and Sun Java certs are a waste of time and money.

However I also think certification like what the ACM and IEEE have cooked up in the CSDP is at least worth a look. This is a test of a sizeable chunk of received wisdom in crafting software – the software engineering body of knowledge (SWEBOK). I haven’t yet taken the test (being in a country that is far from the nearest testing centre), and the main concern I have about this cert is that it resembles the PM-BOK from the PMI, which (as far as the PMI cert itself is concerned) is an extravagant way to subsidise the PMI. Even still, the PM-BOK itself is well worth studying if you want to be a better project manager. From the parts of the SWEBOK I’ve read, it too is well worth the time to study. I only hope that the CSDP and PMI resemblance is fleeting.

Regarding the questions about how can you recognise a software organisation on a par with working for the Mayo Clinic, I’m sure there are a dozen companies you can name right now that would give you the same idea of how competent a developer the candidate is (e.g. Google, Microsoft, Apple, CSC), and how well rounded their development experience is likely to have been. There is always going to be a great many more software houses out there than you can keep track of, an anonymous 90% that are going to have a much less well known reputation, just like how hard it can be to find out just how good or bad the local hospital in another town really is. For this reason, more than any other, I think internships will never be an effective way to train developers. In fact, from what I’ve seen of the medical industry, it seems to just be a way to pay junior doctors less than they deserve.

When it comes to choosing whether to interview, unless you’ve got a terrible employment network in your area, you can’t interview every person who sends you a resume. You need a reason (sometimes, any reason) to thin the herd you’ll need to talk to – certifications can be one of those reasons. It’s just up to you whether having one is a no-hire reason or not.

It’s easy to find horror stories from any profession.

Hi Uncle Bob. I still have high hopes for the Agile Skills Project. It remains to be seen whether it will deliver or be effective, but if we do it well I hope it will be a lot like what Corey suggested: A way for us to talk about what we expect professional programmer/craftsmen to do to continuously improve, and something that isn’t owned by any one person, business, or certification body.

D. Andre Dhondt and I will be leading a session in Norway (XP 2010) to talk about it in detail. Anyone who is interested in participating in the project can start right away: www.agileskillsproject.org

Personally I don’t find certifications to be worth the paper they’re printed on. There is no substitute for experience and that can only be gauged from resume and interview. For general development roles, (junior/intermediate) assessing how well the candidate will fit into the team culture is more important than experience. (They’re expected to be mentored for the skills they need.) For lead roles then the most important factor with experience is assessing whether they have (X * n) years of experience vs. (1 * Y). I.e. it’s generally better for someone to have 5×1 year experience than 1x 5 years exp.

A good case against certification: I worked with a guy we’ll call “D”. D held an MCSD and was damned proud of his MCSD. So proud, that when he wrote code and added a class header, it was “Written by: D, MCSD”. D was a good coder, no doubt, but we hired him because he had over 5 years of experience on a number of different projects. It turned out that D spent something like $15,000 to take a course and get certified, and was now paying off a loan. When it came time to expand the team, D would defend that we should be interested in candidates that had at least MCPs or MCSDs. One day, a resume came across my desk, MCSD + MCSE, “woo”. But only 3 years of scattered experience in-between certifications. I showed it to D and he said we definitely should interview, so I humored him and made sure he was present at the interview.

The candidate came in, dressed sharp, complete with copies of his certifications. At which time we started going through the basic array of technical questions that we had been asking at all interviews. (Plus a couple extras that D had prepared.) The poor guy did not have a clue. No real experience, no application of basic coding practice, only theory they memorized for tests. I was even shocked at the lack of applied knowledge. (Then again, the certs may have been fakes?)

D was stunned, and I don’t think he ever insisted that certs should be the most important consideration for new hires.

On a side note, one of the most talented devs we hired had no certification, I think at the time he only had one or so years of exp. and a college course after several years as a manager of a fast-food joint. The reason we hired him? On his resume he had a website URL which had downloadable code from projects he did on his own time. Well structured, good, clean code, he did damn well at the interview questions as well…

If you want to hire skill, you need to search for it.

Sorry, what’s the problem here? Is it just the immense size of the file, or something more substantial?

The stated goal of certifications for lawyers and doctors is to ensure that only qualified individuals end up practicing those professions. Who wouldn’t that? Right? Similar arguments could be made for any profession, including software engineering.

But the real goal is to limit the number of practitioners so that the ones who make it get paid tons of money. Supply and demand. Limit the supply and prices go up. This is no different than the guild system from the middle ages.

I’ve held the IEEE CSDP credential for about 8 years. It’s based upon the SWEBOK, which consist of 10 knowledge areas that describe generally accepted knowledge about software engineering.

I don’t judge peers based on upon certification, and I don’t think anyone who knows me would say I’m arrogant or insecure (some preceding comments came across pretty prejudiced).

The credential is good for me because the work involved in maintaining it keeps me looking outside of my current area of involvement.

Anyway, the SWEBOK is worth taking a look at: http://www.computer.org/portal/web/swebok/html/contents

Not all employers are willing to invest the time or effort to get interns, and nowadays they have to weed out a lot of candidates before even granting interviews: to some, it might just make sense to put the resumes mentioning certifications a little higher on the pile.

As a dev with a college degree but not a lot of job experience, I made it my goal to get some cert in 2010, not because I think it’ll make me a better programmer or boost my self-esteem, but because it might help me get my foot in the door and get interviewed. It doesn’t matter what my skills are if nobody ever interviews me, does it?

As long as employers keep looking for the “bad” kind of certificates, as long as employers do not bother putting time and effort into interviewing and weeding out, this problem is going to stick around.

It’s the hiring personell who need education first, then the job applicants will have to follow suit in getting actual qualification instead of certs that don’t mean anything.

Unfortunately there are far too few ace developers on the market, so many organizations don’t have a choice. They need to hire underqualified people, and then looking at bogus certificates in resumes is as good a hiring practice as any other.

I think it is rather difficult to certify developers because good programming is like art. Some one may know all the basics but will make a horrible programmer while some one else who knows the basics well may write the most elegant code.

@Jared

Resume writing skills have a lot more impact in getting interviews than certifications. How you present skills and details matter far more than the skills themselves. Still, nothing substitutes for experience. The best advice I ever got was from a professional technical writer on resume organization. I’ve never held any certification and never been out of work longer than a week in over 14 years of contract and perm work. Getting that first job was the hard part though. :)

Certification works great for us, I wouldn’t employee anyone based on a degree in computer studies. Out of 60 people in my year only 2 of us produced working code, the pass rate was 100%. A degree rings alarm bells. Anyone that needs 6+ years to learn to program is right out. Oddly Uncle Bob’s thoughts were only ever mentioned in computational aspects of data processing never in programming 101

A good model to follow would be what actuaries use. There are several levels of certification that require multiple tests each. The first tests begin while still in college. Employers usually mentor new graduates.

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What if we interviewed developers and checked their references? The guys doing the interview wrote the code you displayed! They are suspicious of modularity. Complexity and obsfucation is what industry demands. The lead DBA and dept head for Citigroup’s automotive finance division was asked “When do you normalize a table?” and the answer she gave was “When the table gets close to thirty fields”. No discussion of entities or design, just “thirty”. The lead architect at Availity Health writes 4000 line javascript methods. The former head of architecture at Countrywide mortgage thinks to this day that object message passing is done with MQ. Industry does not want better developers. They want developers who sit in cubes coding, heads down, no talking and after three months, forward all the code to integration testing where magic happens and everything works together. With Agile teamwork, mediocre developers are sufficient. With poor teamwork – the sort industry demands – the best developers can just get by.

@Jani yes you are right..

When I started out as an ICT professional I knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about being an ICT professional. It took me about 5 years to finally realise I am absolutely useless, unproductive, stupid and naive when it comes to delivering really good code/implementations/solutions.

I have a BS in computer science. I was certified to the hilt. Yet I worked days and nights, weekends and public holidays to get my work done. One day it dawned on me that I am not stupid or have no aptitude, I realised that what I learned was useless, inconsequential, not applicable knowledge. I had no skills. Ouch.

I read. Books. Code. Mailing lists. Bulletin boards. I listened to those I respected. I asked 10, 000, 000 questions. I wrote it down. I asked “WHY?” – not because thought better but because I wanted to know better.

It is 19 years later. I have skills. I know how to solve problems. I deliver. I am productive. I have great professional self esteem. I am a committer at the ASF. I server on a number of PMCs. I work for myself. My network finds me, I do not go looking for work…

Why? Because people invested in me. Professionals gave me their time. They were kind, gentle and sincere (most of them at least).

I strife to do the same for young paduans/apprentices/privates. I follow the way of the Jedi/Sensei/Gunny. The more you learn to do well, the more you get to do. I will not belittle, embarrass or bully them. The world becomes a better place for all ICT professionals that way.

I see two scenarios in which certifications can be useful. One, is it allows nontechnical gatekeepers to screen out applicants who out-and-out LIE about knowing such-and-such technology. Yes, there are indeed unethical job candidates who do this, and yes, many employers need to rely on nontechnical gatekeepers to winnow down the applicant pool before investing the time of the employees who are technically knowledgeable.

Two, it can be useful helping an effective and experienced developer get work using a technology he has no professional experience in. Obviously, you’d prefer a smart, effective developer who has only book-knowledge of your tool set than someone who has used those tools but who is incompetent. And you’d prefer not to have to finance ALL of that good developer’s education about your platform while you wait an extra long time for him to become productive.

No, I agree, certification will not prevent the development of monstrously bad code. Good code is written only by developers who are intelligent AND who care about writing good code. I don’t know of any test that can distinguish that latter characteristic.

Will the certificates be printed in Hindi or Punjabi?

I don’t know what is the worst part of this code. The fact that there is a billion lines of code in one single file, or the fact that this same file is named “two.java” which imply there must be at least an other one like this…

You need technically savvy hiring managers or you’re not going to be able to ask the right questions or understand the answers. Being a web developer I’ve seen countless examples of terrible coding when having to take over websites.

Some companies or individuals know what problem they need solved and they start looking around for an engineer. Uniform standards help in the areas of building architecture, etc. So I think in programming they’d make the most difference when non technically savvy firms needed to find programmers.

Of course you do point out some obstacles that this certification idea may have before it can gain traction—and I agree it would be an uphill climb. In the meantime though, all we’ve got are word of mouth referrals and having a technically savvy individual screen applicants.

In the real world I know one maybe two developers with certifications. They both are big about degrees and certs. Most companies interview you a san idividual, the ones who try to test me, I just blow off.

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I think a certification program would be a great idea also. The video showed a ridiculous amount of code. Thats just way too much. I think you have the right idea going though. Great article. Thanks

The video is a shame. In the real market, certifications would be a great way to test the capabilities of developers.

Employers should served by a developer certification program.

The program I’ve been running with the BBC and other clients is entirely built on the premise that one man’s idea of X is different to another’s, and that the only effective way to assess ability is to ask them to “whip it out”

A signed letter of recommendation from Clapton is a certification of significance! Not just anyone can get one of those. That letter will impress potential employers forever after.

I think in today’s world, certificates are counting for less and less. This is primarily due to the phenomenal growth of the internet where people who hold no certificates have achieved incredible success.

@chrise – I think that certificates are still worthwhile, but they are certainly not worth as much as they used to be.

Realistically speaking, credibility and sheer hard work are today’s weapon. Certificates are becoming less and less credible now as anybody could easily attend trainings but would still require them to develop the skill for sometime.

Certainly certificates are must and should be backed with proper examination and checking.

If someone show his/her talent in perfect way than he or she should get certificate.

These kind of coding will bring negative effects.

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Is this for real? if so I am shocked and bewildered.

Software Developers, Programmers Junior or Senior are not judged by degrees, certificates but how well there code works. I have one friend grade 12 only brilliant programmer in C+, php and html. six years in the industry.

One common problem I’ve experienced with programmers is extremely late delivery. Many programmers think it’s ok….well try that approach with construction.

There’s a college near my hometown that has recently developed a new programming program where students learn the basics, eventually grow into advanced work, and then have to spend the summer doing coop for a company in order to get the experience and skills they need to be able to tackle even bigger jobs, and hopefully in a professional and more efficient manner.

This was a funny blog with a great number of points made. Great stuff.

I was on a project with a guy who managed to write 2.000+ LOC classes and if/then/else constructs 4 levels deep. Admittedly, his code worked very well (in the sense it had always very few errors, if any). But nobody else would touch it with a 10 ft pole for the fear of breaking it.

When I suggested we use Checkstyle and a 1.000 lines per class, 100 lines per class, and 120 chars per line limit I got told by a number of programmers “you interfere with my right to code as I see fit”.

I kid you not, the guy is the only one still on the project.

If I had had a say he would have been the first one being asked to either comply with the perfectly reasonable style guide, or go.

I fully agree with Ketan about the Joel test. In my experience doing something as simple as having a candidate writing code in front of you can save countless hours of grief and can be much more effective than any certification could ever be.

I fully agree with Ketan about the Joel test. In my experience doing something as simple as having a candidate writing code in front of you can save countless hours of grief and can be much more effective than any certification could ever be.

Certification for coders is about as arbitrary and abstract as making an entrepreneur become certified to conduct business- it just doesn’t make sense. Surely this will be brushed under as any real ‘gauge’ for employers.

Tell me how the lock will be open by this programing . I think it will be automatic .

I completely agree with you the the videos show the ridiculous amount of code . but certificate will allowed after verification of abilities .

These days, certificates are becoming meaningless and less credible now because everyone could easily attend trainings but would still require them to develop the skill for sometime.

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Well, developer is like any other job: there are good people and bad people. Hopefully if they are a lot of bad people, the good ones are really good and you are one of them :D Nice post even if I do not agree about everything with you (i.e. a certification can be useful in more than one case)

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Informative thanks!

Certificate is needed only to show other. Its WTF really/

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Its good video to know about the engineers who made such a mess. But its not good to make big mistakes by the proffessionals.

Are these certificates still worth to get ?

I love the Michaelango reference. It is hard to replicate that kind of endorsement. I would love to have someone like Clapton endorse me.

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My hypothesis is that a big part of the problem is due to the fact that our field is so young that most of the older, more seasoned developers and managers don’t have Computer Science degrees, so they are reluctant to accept them as a requirement, because it indirectly implies that they themselves may not be qualified.

I think the word “professional” is a part of the problem. The fact that his work is a programmer you can not give a professional programmer.

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Nice post Bob. I appreciate the thoughtful post but I have something to add.

How you present skills and details matter far more than the skills themselves. Still, nothing substitutes for experience. The best advice I ever got was from a professional technical writer on resume organization.

Using a med school analogy, I think our undergrad is a comparable to their med school. With the current state of industry, I think a valid intern/residency program for developers won’t work. How do we know the mentor is qualified? And finally, I’d compare most industry certs to the continuing education that doctors must complete through out their career. they vary wildly in quality too.

I like the video . The information your provided useful. We must be careful . Thanks

The video is nice and now I am just thinking whether these kind of certificates are worth or not ..

Notice that I said that the promises were implicit. That’s the whole key to making lightweight certifications profitable. The goal is to imply that the benefits of certification are so huge that people will pay to get the certification. Often that implication can be as simple and subtle as the choice of words used to name the certification. cheap VPS Consider, for example, the title of “Certified Development Chief” imprinted on the certificate of someone who just took a “Development Chief” course. Who wouldn’t want to be a Certified Development Chief? And if you aren’t a Certified Development Chief, then what kind of Development Chief are you?

Doing something as simple as having a someone writing code in front of you can save countless hours of grief and can be much more effective than any certification could ever be.

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One common problem with programmers is extremely late delivery. Many programmers think it’s ok….

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“My hypothesis is that a big part of the problem is due to the fact that our field is so young that most of the older, more seasoned developers and managers don’t have Computer Science degrees, so they are reluctant to accept them as a requirement, because it indirectly implies that they themselves may not be qualified.”

No! It’s because most of us older programmers learned by programming on Commodores, Apple 2s, and the like, not by sitting through a bunch of meaningless computer science and humanities college courses.

Good post thanks for all.I would love to have someone like Clapton endorse me.

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Software engineering is going downhill….

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I don’t think certification will solve problem. And no offense most of certifications are crap.

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I could not agree more. Even in relatively smart companies seem to understand the value of clean code, TDD and agile practices CERT recruitment I’ve seen happen. Nowadays, every kind of agency have already build a server. This has shown up that this is one of major needs of an agency.

Thank you for taking the time to publish this information very useful! I?m still waiting for some interesting thoughts from your side in your next post thanks.

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The field is going downhill…thats for sure!

This article gives the light in which we can observe the reality. This is very nice one and gives in-depth information.

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Sit with me, write your tests and code together.I learned a lot from your article,this is a good opinion and I’d like to share this with my friends.Thanks.

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Sit with me, write your tests and code together.I learned a lot from your article,this is a good opinion and I’d like to share this with my friends.Thanks.

First, your reference Clapton highlights a very real problem with any measure of merit. I’ve been playing guitar for 21 years and I can tell you is massively overrated as a musician. Now if you had said ‘tour with Frank Zappa … ;-) My idea of a great developer of software may differ from the idea to many other people in a large software developer. Many developers are considered major developers poor people who see things very differently. I’m sure many interviews end with both sides walking thinking that the other person does not know what they are talking. So any system of separating the wheat from the chaff would have to bear in mind that these schools are different and there is a widely accepted consensus on anything in what we do at this time. Perhaps a dozen like-minded individuals can come together and agree on, for example, what it means to be doing TDD effective, but as soon as we try to apply that on a scale larger than we are either hindered b A server is just about being a main of many clients in a network. Once the main got problem, then all of the clients will be stopped and unworkable.

Thats true because most of the programmers that we see today are just trolls. Hopefully this trend will end soon enough and the quality will return among us. cheers

Great article though so thanks it’s very interesting you did lot of research before posting any new content.

I don’t have anything else to include on to your article – you basically spelled everything out. great read.

I would like to thank you for this post. I recently come across your blog and was reading along.

Thank you for sharing, my families and I all like you article ,reading you article is our best love.

There are some very great sources here and thank you for being so kind to post them here. So we can read them and give our opinion on subject.

Its really a very informative video for me. I have learn a lot from this video. Thanks for sharing such valuable stuff with us.

A certificate is different than a license. In your analogy of doctors and lawyers, one cannot practice medicine or law legally without a license. But there is no such thing when it comes to software. Anyone can write software without a license. You don’t even have to go to school or get a degree to write software.

Nice, thank for the articles about Developer Certification WTF

The blog was seen. It became reference very much. Thank you.

Thanks for the information and video is pretty interesting, congratulations for your blog

Nice and informative article; thanks for sharing it with your readers…

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Nice and informative article- Great insight. thanks for sharing it.

I am just new to your blog and just spent about 1 hour and 30 minutes lurking and reading. I think I will frequent your blog from now on after going through some of your posts. I will definitely learn a lot from them. Regards

As for interviewing people (programmers or musicians): what’s wrong with asking them to play you something? After all, if you were hiring a juggler, would you sit them down and ask them about their juggling history? References are worthless because we all know that employers are reluctant to say anything bad for fear of being sued, and will often give glowing references for someone they’re hoping will move on soon. how to jump higher | error fix

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I think I will have nightmares about the video: P Great job mate! I like your work. Thanks for sharing

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Ligeti’s Lux Aeterna even too joyous soundtrack to this quagmire of coding. Something like Suicidal Angels Eternal Darkness would have been more appropriate. (Yes, I am being cheeky) This article gives the light in which we can observe the reality.I enjoyed every little bit of it and I have you bookmarked to check out new stuff you post.

FML! Please tell us how many there are Line of Control (200k I believe). Are you sure that the code was not generated automatically? Aw, this was a really quality post. In theory I’d like to write like this too – taking time and real effort to make a good article… but what can I say… I procrastinate alot and never seem to get something done.

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What happens if we ask them to show us how they work? Is it possible? :)

Greetings I recently finished reading through your blog and I’m very impressed. I do have a couple questions for you personally however. Do you think you’re thinking about doing a follow-up posting about this? Will you be going to keep bringing up-to-date as well?

Thanks for the great post. Really does show how much we need to clean up coding and developer software.

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I guess the problem is also how much you should have to pay to get hired. It’s a little artificial anyway, but how many thousands of dollars should you pay to get past the checklist stage in a job search?

the term professional is overrated for real and just like Groeneveld says reading studying and practicing medicine does not make one a surgeon just like a library full of syntax and libs does not make one a lawyer instead one should take time

this is a very interesting topic.. I absolutely hate applying for a job and being asked to pay processing fee…. I’ve invested time, energy and money also in applying for the position prospective employers should be able to take it the rest of the way… the only exception to this i think is when you have to apply for an overseas job. there, you know you will have to foot most of the cost. and some employers still decide to absorb the cost of hiring because its an investment. But generally if i have to pay to go thru stages of a job search i think “scam”

this is a very interesting topic.. I absolutely hate applying for a job and being asked to pay processing fee…. I’ve invested time, energy and money also in applying for the position prospective employers should be able to take it the rest of the way… the only exception to this i think is when you have to apply for an overseas job. there, you know you will have to foot most of the cost. and some employers still decide to absorb the cost of hiring because its an investment. But generally if i have to pay to go thru stages of a job search i think “scam” kitchen cutting boards

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Let’s talk a bit about developer quality, and some things that are being done about it. It’s well known that developer quality is critical to successful

A new developer certification program would likely solve their problem.

Maybe a dozen likeminded people could get together and agree on, for example, what it means to be doing TDD effectively, but as soon as we try to apply that on a larger scale we’re either hindered by these differences or we end up with a lowest-common-denominator qualification trying to please everybody.

Really, I like the video as it gives many information and reason of the horrible state of software engineering.

New developers are certainly joining the creative team. As the demand of developers are increasing. But the number of developer may harm the quality of the developers work.

What if we slowly gave them trials of Hercules to follows, and had them work with Michaelangelos.

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It’s well known that developer quality is critical to successful

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You know, people are getting lazy in their programming these days. It is resulting in a security landmine worldwide.

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Oh that certification is indeed a strange move. I hope they will overthink it….

OMG that’s bad news! Well, the news is 10 months old, but it’s still bad news!

It sounds good! Thanks for sharing.

Professionalism is really a part of every job and not only for programmer.

Why should a developer be certified? That’s very weird…

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The code looks a little better if you play Pure by the Lightning Seeds over the top of it.

Well actually not really. That code reminds me of open source projects.

I fully agree with a certification after a 5 day sheep dip course being worthless but a certification that takes many years is something different.

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We don’t need flimsy certifications- we need apprenticeships and residents- just like the medical doctor profession. Sit with me, write your tests and code together. Learn to refactor toward code that communicates intent and minimizes defect risk. Do it for a couple of years. Keep with it, and you will learn the craft. Only then will I vouch for you.

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Following path B you’ll probably end up with 50% or so features as “stable”, another 15-20% as having known issues with work-arounds, or possibly buggy but stable enough to have been integrated.

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But if it works, what is the problem? 99% users need something they could use for work/fun. Not to read a code.

Today certification have just become a money play. Give fees and you will surely get a certificate. This is the only reason behind this kind of mess.

In my opinion the ignorant of good practices is a result of lack of time. When I have a dead line I sometimes do things less solid.

But more than just talented, you have to show up every day, you have to work well with others, you have to be willing to get the job done under pressure. Clapton doesn’t work with slouches!

Some companies or individuals know what problem they need solved and they start looking around for an engineer. Uniform standards help in the areas of building architecture, etc. So I think in programming they’d make the most difference when non technically savvy firms needed to find programmers.

You are very right! The certification doesn’t mean anything without practice and hard working on a daily basis…the main thing is your skills, experience(especially if it’s about developers), you can don’t have certificate at all! And a very good thing to have interns, you can choose then the best professionals, you can teach them exactly what you need… I really like your post and your style! Serious topic but still fun! Great! Thank you!

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A good model to follow would be what actuaries use. There are several levels of certification that require multiple tests each. The first tests begin while still in college. Employers usually mentor new graduates.

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In my opinion, certifications are a good way of seeding out highly qualified individuals that get mixed in with those that produce lack-luster output. There’s no sense in hiring someone who’s got 5 years experience in software engineering over someone who has lesser experience but has the right certifications…

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Well said Marc Cooper: “While businesses continue to delude themselves that IT is a construction job requiring labourers, they will not be motivated to demand high levels of craftsmanship and formal professionalism, and will suffer the consequences. Those that do, and engage equally, will reap significant rewards.”???

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“But who else is served by a developer certification program? Employers?”- NOT!!!!

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the term professional is overrated for real and just like Groeneveld says reading studying and practicing medicine does not make one a surgeon just like a library full of syntax and libs does not make one a lawyer instead one should take time

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Very strange… who needs a developer certification? O__o Is this for java developers, too?

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I think it is rather difficult to certify developers because good programming is like art.

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I agree with the low value of most developer certificates. But I hope we’ll move beyond what you’re proposing.

I’m all for the Medical/Laws route. The difference in level of education between those and IT is staggering. Here’s how those professions would translate to IT:

Just because you know most the law books by heart (code syntax and libs) doesn’t mean you can practice law (write production code). Just because you’ve spend 6 years studying and practicing medicine (writing compilers and some development experience), doesn’t mean you can do brain surgery without supervision (work on a complex IT project).

Only after years of study, guidance, practice, trials and training on the job can one really enter the profession of IT. If we value our customers and their long term interest, this is the only way we can raise the bar for (production) code quality.

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In regards to programmers certification doesn’t make sense. It’s like a certification in cooking. Maybe you can follow a set of rules, but it doesn’t make you a good problem solver..

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Bob, you’re right: Today, giving certificates has come to be a business, which is a shame. The same people who invented this business are the ones who sustain that possessing a certificate will make you more desirable for a boss, which is a lie. They feed this business, day by day, advertising about how easy and how effortless you could obtain a certificate in everything, and after you’ll own one, about how much knowledge ans skill you’ll possess. Now, really, how can I get a certificate as a developer? I really need it!

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Only after years of study, guidance, practice, trials and training on the job can one really enter the profession of IT. If we value our customers and their long term interest, this is the only way we can raise the bar for (production) code quality.

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Very true and completely agree. Additionally with the certification, self knowledge also helped us to take right descision at right time.

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Though things can be performed without certifications, but I think certifications are good way to know the things inside out…

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They can use that certification to prove to their employers and their fellow professionals that they are worthy of being considered true and clean software developers.This post is so well written and it’s easy to see you know what you’re talking about.

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I think our undergrad is a comparable to their med school. With the current state of industry, I think a valid intern/residency program for developers won’t work. How do we know the mentor is qualified? And finally,

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As an employer, I want to hire people who have succeeded at working with others in the past. The more I trust those others, the better! No developer certification program that I know of (except for one that I’ll mention later) provides that kind of credible reference.

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