Saying "NO". 794
I saw this cartoon in a tweet today. It’s the story of how a boss corrupts the work of a professional. It’s a funny cartoon, and a sad story that happens all too often in our profession. But who, exactly, was at fault?...
The difference between a laborer and a professional is that a laborer takes orders from his boss, and a professional provides input to his superiors. Laborers are hired to take direction. Professionals are hired to ensure that the direction chosen makes sense.
Imagine this conversation between a patient and a doctor:
Patient: “My arm hurts.” Doctor: “What would you like me to do about it?” Patient: “Make my arm stop hurting.” Doctor: “Do you want me to cut it off?, I can do that.” Patient: “No, I just want it to stop hurting.” Doctor: “I could cut all the nerves to your arm. That’ll stop it.” Patient: “Isn’t there something less drastic you could do?” Doctor: “Ooops, sorry, time for my break.”
Clearly we don’t expect doctors to behave this way. Even though the patient is the boss, the patient expects the doctor to have the answers and help set the direction.
Here’s another version of the conversation:
Patient: “I want you to cut my arm off.” Doctor: “What’s wrong with your arm?” Patient: “It hurts. I’m tired of it. Just cut it off.” Doctor: “Let me see your arm. Hmmm. Looks like you’ve got a sprain or perhaps a hairline fracture. We should take some X-Rays.” Patient: “No, just cut it off.” Doctor: “Sir, I do not cut off healthy arms.” Patient: “But I’m paying you. You have to do what I say!” Doctor: “No, sir, I don’t. Cutting off your arm would violate my oath.”
Which of these two doctors would you rather be? Now project these two doctors into your own profession, and which would you rather be?
Programmers are professionals. They know more about designing and implementing software systems than their bosses do. Indeed, they are hired for this knowledge and expertise. And they have a solemn duty to prevent their managers from doing things that would be harmful.
All this boils down to one simple thing. Professionals are willing to say “No”. When their managers come to them with direction that makes no sense, a professional programmer will refuse the direction.
Is this risky? Sure. But part of being a professional is the willingness to stand on principle. There are lines that a professional will not cross.
Of course saying “No.” is only one side of the coin. Professionals are also expected to explain their positions, and come up with viable alternatives. Professionals negotiate with their superiors until both parties are satisfied with the chosen direction.
The poor web-designer schmuck in that cartoon was not behaving as a professional. He was behaving as a laborer. The fiasco at the end was his fault. He should have said “No.” and started a negotiation with his customer instead of just doing everything the customer said.
The cartoonist painted the web-designer as a wise but impotent victim, and the boss as the overbearing dufus. The reality is that the web-designer took the role of the victim voluntarily and shirked his responsibility to refuse direction that he considered harmful.
If you are a professional, you never allow yourself to be put in the role of the victim.
This almost feels like we programmers need to take an oath of “Do no Harm” as well as doctors.
Great article!
:P Both funny and sad indeed. I lived through a program’s tentacular growth. Small business, I was the only programmer. Every time I implemented a boss-requested feature, there would be destructive criticism asking me to rebuild it otherwise. The business is now, as far as I can tell, on the verge of death.
I agree about the whole being a professional thing, but what about the fact that in the cartoon, the client was happy with the result?
@DaveA: If the client wouldn’t listen to reason about the work, the web designer should’ve let someone else do the dirty work and not stoop down to the level that he did. The client would be just as happy but the original designer had acted as a professional and spared himself of a lot of pain. Making the customer happy is only one goal. Delivering quality (in the eyes of the professional) and maintainability is another.
If you do say ‘no’ to your boss, make sure you know about all consequences, not just developer consequences.
I hope we can move past the “I’m not a victim”and “fight the power”. The programmer has a work ethic but so does the boss. You need both to make optimum decisions.
Yes, but…for someone who’s a programmer and being treated as a laborer rather than a professional (as is the case for many if not most programmers), I would not recommend saying “NO” and getting fired. Better to get another job first, where saying “NO” is not a survival risk.
The only thing the designer didn’t do was to at least advise his client against the dark path they wanted to follow. If he did that, he’d have done his due diligence. I am leaving a company where my decisions were constantly overridden by the “subject matter expert” (his words) and during my tenure I’ve advised, been shot down and subsequently blamed for his decisions. Thus I’m leaving. But while I was being paid, I was responsible for doing what the client was paying me to do. We all can’t just walk away. :)
To be fair, the author in his comments does say things like “After the 13th revision, I fired the client”. That sounds quite a lot like saying “no” to me.
I’m not sure that the Doctor analogy is appropriate. Doctors have a protected profession, and many clients. If they send away someone who wants their arm chopped off, then there’s still another client in the waiting room.
If I get told to do something unprofessional I’ll put up a fight, but only to a point. There’s only one person who pays my bills (even if his software company works for many clients) and the best I can do is, over time, demonstrate where they went wrong and I was right. But it’s a really slow process.
Maybe one day we’ll have a software profession. But not yet. Going back to the doctor analogy, people are much of a muchness. Software might look much the same from the outside, but it would be difficult to set up a business where you’ve a Java job, then a Perl job, then a Ruby, then a… well, you get the idea. Even though being a software developer is much the same from job to job, there’s enough of a barrier-to-entry for each job that means that clients end up sticking with the same developers, and developers end up working on the same products.
PS here’s a youTube clip along the same lines. Alas, it does contain swear words… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfprIxNfCjk (and the sequel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCjcwBGQtiw)
And when I say “shot down” I mean, “shut down hard”. No debate on the decision.
Often we professionals belive that we know better than the salesman (managers often are responsible for the money comming into the company).
Often we know better than the manager. But the manager also know things that we don’t know. Things that actually put money in your pockets.
Excellent points. The biggest problem with that cartoon, which was obviously geared more towards design, is when the client (the owner of the website), takes the design given to him, then bastardizes it after working with the professional. The professional could have said NO until they were blue in the face, but at the end – the client took over the work they paid for and ruined it.
This is more of the thought process behind it. I know plenty of professional designers, who stood their ground through the entire process, then went back to the site days, weeks, or months later to see the client completely ruining the work they did.
At this point, what say does the designer have in the process?
So – I saw it as more of an ‘after-the-fact’ frustration – but I understand it happens both ways (in progress and after the fact).
You make excellent points – I just wonder if it can all be avoided (Think: clients who want a CMS, get a CMS, don’t know what they are doing, and completely tarnish an otherwise beautiful and well-planned interface)
I disagree with several points. Unlike a Doctor, we are paid to do what the client wants, not what we feel is “best”. As a professional, I always give what is my opinion, in writing, with reasons and backing. I don’t argue, I advise. Calmly. They are paying for my experience, expertise and ability. I give them what they pay for.
In the end, if they still want some piece of trash I either do it or will have to leave. If I sit in a meeting and tell my boss ‘No, I will not do that because…’, I’d be out the door as would most people. I do say ‘I don’t think that is a good solution because….’.
The web designer is in the same position. While high principles are great I find it difficult to use this to pay the rent. At some point, somewhere, you find yourself doing quality work that results in an ugly product.
I do draw the line at any code that will, in any way, cheat, spy, steal from or infect a customer, or reduce system security. I’d rather be fired than be complicit. (I’ve already run into one company that wanted me to fiddle a monetary conversion rate and I point-blank refused on the basis that I will not steal. I almost got fired but I won the day. Barely.)
fundamental flaw in your argument: nobody treats programmers like professional. The only reason they call us “professionals” is so they don’t have to pay us overtime, but really they just want us to be trained lemurs with keyboards.
Great point, Bob. I’m not sure it’s really a question of saying “No” as much as it is of helping the boss arrive at a meaningful “Yes,” as suggested by the doctor/arm analogy.
For some reason, the post dredged up an ancient memory. Back in the 80s I was supporting a large-scale OLTP app running on CICS. My boss approached on day and said, “I want you to put the entire master file in a Temp Storage queue.”
In the context of that ancient software, Temp Storage could be used for in-memory storage of small quantities of data, to hand off between CICS tasks. What the boss asked for, literally, would have caused the Temp Storage facility to resort to DASD because of the quantity of data involved. She didn’t know that.
I asked her, “Do you really want the master file in a Temp Storage queue as such, or are you thinking about minimizing I/O overhead by keeping more data in memory?” She replied, “Yeah, that.”
We were able to save the arm.
The doctor example is a straw man. Here’s why:
“Programmers are professionals. They know more about designing and implementing software systems than their bosses do. Indeed, they are hired for this knowledge and expertise. And they have a solemn duty to prevent their managers from doing things that would be harmful.”
Building a bad web site, or a bad software system, is not harmful. Silly maybe. A waste of time probably. But not truly harmful.
When I was finishing my EE degree we had a lot of classes about professionalism and ethics and such. The topic of disobedience was covered because an engineer acquiescing to a boss who wants to use cheaper, substandard bolts on a bridge could cause people to die. An engineer who bows to pressure to use thinner wires to save money could start a fire. These are objective issues – the effectiveness of a substandard bolt or thinner wire is easily derived and proven.
Web sites, and marketing in general, are subjective practices. In the cartoon the customer has various motivations for his web site: he wants to sell toast, he wants to present a certain image of his business to his customers, he wants to present a certain image of himself to the public, wants to echo some of his in-store experience, and wants to craft his own unique toast-industry message. The web designer probably holds more expertise than the business owner on the first point (selling things on the web) but the business owner undoubtably has a better perspective on the other considerations.
It would be a different story if you were asked to do something that would legitimately expose customer’s credit card numbers or personal information. Maybe if you were asked to do something that would affect others on a shared hosting platform or something. But as a professional, once you’ve made reasonable attempts to communicate your opinion and persuade others, your job is to implement it, and to do so without drama.
Saying “No” at that point is neither prudent nor professional. If you’re really honest with yourself as a designer you’ll find you object to the rejection of your layout and artwork as much as you do to the new concepts. Coming to grips with that is the hardest part of being a professional artist.
Great article.
This is the reason my biggest advice to programmers, even before reading Clean Code :) – is to get their financial house in order so that they can be in a position to say no and mean it.
In the longer term though, I agree – we need to work hard to make this a norm among most people. If people could doctor shop like they programmer shop today to tell them what they want to hear, they probably would. We have to make “programmer-shopping” harder.
Suspect it would have been most useful to agree measurement criteria with client up front. Most likely these will be business-meaningful (client will be too embarrassed to suggest writing “my mum likes it” into a contract – and if they insist, you can walk away easily before wasting any time). Then when client tries to use the mum-metric to introduce kittens, you don’t have to say “no” – just say, “Let’s test kittens against non-kittens to see which does better in converting visitors to customers.”
Negotiating is meaningless if you aren’t willing to say “no”.
Bravo! – keep beating this drum Uncle Bob
Great article, and great discussion!
The comic is how I feel sometimes. Unfortunately, I stinketh most exceedingly at communicating clearly, politely, and even fairly. Due the angry emotions I sometimes feel toward requirements that I think are bad, I have to take much time to cool off and carefully think through the wording of my response to the requirements.
There is a huge difference between client and employer. If you’re dealing with a client, you should have something in writing that covers what will be used to evaluate. If it’s your boss, then you simply need to document (emails, whatever). At some point his/her superiors are going to take an interest. You now have what you need to show what has been happening (this is the voice of experience). If the boss is the owner or top of the food chain, time to look for another job. Until then, let them pay you while you’re looking. Standing on principle works as long as both sides are reasonable and it is not used very often.
Uncle Bob, Your message of being professional is well taken. However, I am not sure if I got the same message as you did from this cartoon. The client seems to be happy- and if he is then I guess…job well done. Now if the client was unhappy – then we can argue the designer should have pre-warned the client that the road he is walking on will lead to disappointment.
If I ask a painter to paint the walls of my house in shocking pink. Is it really his job to tell me that it looks bad and he won’t do it ? Isn’t it my responsibility to see that? Guaranteed he can warn me that the choice of my carpet conflicts with the wall, but only so much…
At some point , we ALL need to take ‘some’ responsibility including the client
There isnt a problem here. Everyone knows you need to negotiate with people to get your “way”, everyone has an opinion, and he who has the gold decides. Its timeless and spreads across all business and all sectors. There is no problem that needs solving.
Except…that some designers get all hissy fitted and are jealous of their friends who get to work on “cool” projects or are able to have “total artistic freedom”. Designers often have no clue about the business they are designing for because all they care about is their portfolio. Good designers try to understand the business and audience, and are always trying to get “aligned” with the client because the client is the expert at the business.
The cartoon lets designers wallow in their self pity and is funny. It is not advice on how to actually be a good designer. Its parody to help young, inexperienced designers blow off steam while they reconcile their “vision” with reality (aka “maturing”)
While I do agree with your post, there is a couple clients I have worked with that still provide resistance and stubbornness. I’m happy to say that most people I work with are always willing to hear me out and take direction from me and my knowledge on the subject- but even with any amount of proof, they still insist on doing things ‘their way’.
That being said, I think more designers need to take care to make sure their clients are a good fit for them; not just the client checking to see if the designer is a good fit for their needs. A relationship works two ways and if only one side is working, the outcome of the project or relationship never turns out as well as either side intends.
I decided to “just say no” when I turned down a job for technical and business reasons. On the technical side, the product would have worked well for a few years and then degraded into uselessness. On the business side, the client wanted to sell the product in markets that were already saturated.
Now if only I could find a way to get karma to pay my bills ;-)
Doctors also do things that are basically stupid sometimes when patients demand it—like giving antibiotics when it’s not needed. Perhaps less of that now that there’s focus on antibiotic resistance, but 30 years ago, I guess there were lots of doctors who would humor patients on something they considered basically useless but harmless. The degree of harm is crucial.
I advised against multiple decisions when I saw the managers of my company try to make decisions they were unqualified to make. Their goal is to get the product out the door and getting a ROI asap. We can “fix’ these things later.
Managers who do not know the process of building software will think it is like any other discipline or process. In my experience they think it is like a manufacturing process ‘if you build a box you can rebuild the next box quicker’
I disagree that saying no as a software programmer can’t hurt. I worked for a company that manufactured medical and military equipment.
If the embedded software fails in a pace maker….well you get the picture. Or working on software that requires military technology not exposed to foreigners, while they have access to other information in the system.
Saying no wasn’t just maintenance/quality, but security/health risks as well. There if you say “NO” you got fired (I did) or risk putting it into production and getting fined and jailed or both. And yes it has happened in the past!
I was let go three months ago…”we decided to go another direction” were the words they told me. I heard through the grapevine that they had over 700 reported bugs in their latest module/system testing. I guess they are fixing them later…
While I now work in a job looking to improve their software and my stress level is much lower.
Good article, Uncle Bob. But as some of these comment imply, collaboration with the client (or boss) to arrive at a mutually acceptable solution seems best. If that proves to be impossible, I’m willing to say No.
But my willingness to say No is bolstered by a couple things other than professionalism: 1) I’m usually able to demonstrate that true software quality professionals are NOT fungible and 2) my career has benefitted from parting company with some folks. :->
When we software professionals are willing to walk, we have more power and more self-esteem and we are better contributors/craftspeople.
I agree that it’s our duty to say no if a decision is illegal or can cause physical harm. But I disagree with your definition a professional. A professional is someone who educates and explains why a choice may or may not be in the organization\client’s best interest. The client has the choice then to follow our recommendation, or go with another option. If the client decides to go against your persuasion, then fine, that’s their call. And we have a right to turn down a project if we so choose (especially if it could negatively affect our reputation). But it’s a bit unfair to imply that someone is not a professional if they (after explaining the ramifications) ultimately follow through and give the client exactly what they asked for. Saying no to a project on grounds other than legal\ethical reasons is a personal decision, not a requirement to being a professional.
@Dave A and Rajiv N: Sure, the customer is happy—for now. But will he be happy in a couple of months when he’s losing sales due to the poor design?
The professional’s job is not to win a popularity contest but to create maximum value.
I agree. Professionals need to say, “No,” but obviously with more tact.
I saw this comic today and cracked up!
However, I completely agree with your POV. That puts a whole different spin on the cartoon for me.
Many of these types of problems that designers experience would likely be solved, or at least minimized significantly, if they actually employed some kind of project management framework. Expectations should be set by using some kind of change management process.
There should be a period of flexibility at first (mockups, proofs, etc.), for scope analysis and stakeholder signatures on the aligned goals of the project, but the project should progressively become more firm. The designer needs to communicate to the client that each change after this point must be evaluated and will affect some combination of time, cost, or quality. And as the article suggests, the professional should be prepared to provide sound feedback on the requested changes in addition to locking down changes to certain areas. Explain why certain requests would not be in the client’s best interest.
Everyone should learn to say “No” sometimes. It is a great lesson in general.
Anderson appears to suggest a return to the 1970s-1980s style of work in which “contract negotiation” supercedes “customer collaboration.”
PaulBrown also appears to lean toward formality and written agreements, at least when working with clients as opposed to employers.
It strikes me that this line of reasoning assumes there is some sort of hard line between the designer and the consumer of the design. While things /can/ be that way, I don’t believe they /must/ be that way.
IMHO we should be looking for more direct and more effective interaction with customers, whether they are clients or employers. Merely to formalize the differences of opinion in a document doesn’t help us produce a better product or generate greater customer satisfaction.
Sure, after the fact we can whip out the document and say “See? I /told/ ya so!” but is that really a professional approach?
IMHO the cartoon shows the designer to have an unprofessional attitude. He made no real effort to help the customer understand the marketing implications of his design ideas (or his dog’s design ideas, or whatever). He just took everything as a challenge to his own opinion.
Is the lesson of the cartoon that the designer should have said “No!” to the client, or that the designer should have helped the client arrive at a meaningful “Yes!” that would have served the business purpose better?
I got the impression the designer was a petulant child, and not a professional. He had a client who was enthusiastic and interested in participating in his own project. He didn’t know much about website design, but that’s okay. He was /into/ the project. A client like that is pure gold. Instead of cashing it in, the petulant child flushed it down the toilet. To top it off, he’s proud he did so, and advertised it by drawing a cartoon about it.
“Yes” is the answer our clients want to hear. Sometimes they need a little help to understand which questions to ask to elicit a meaningful “Yes!” That’s where professionalism comes into play.
Wow, I just wrote about almost the same exact thing here: http://simpleprogrammer.com/2009/12/05/scrumbut-double-fudge-sunday-and-scrummaster-personal-trainer/
I am comparing a ScrumMaster to a personal trainer. You wouldn’t want a personal trainer that just did what you said. As software professionals we should learn “do the right thing.”
I am constantly amazed by how many programmers are not willing to stand up for doing the right thing. Well put!
I am so sorry, but you are very wrong. In your terms, we programmers are a lot closer to laborers than professionals. We can not say no, we are fired, we have families to feed and house.
Analogies are imprecise and this article is about visual representation.
In the same way, try to imagine the conversation with a plastic surgeon and not a general practitioner. All of the sudden it could make a lot of sense.
How annoying would it be if Marilyn Manson heard “No” when he went to put spikes on his head? If he went to the plastic surgeon that the author suggests he would be rejected because spikes on human skulls are not standard-issue, the surgeon knows best. Furthermore they are not based on approved human UX/UI. The surgeon would however suggest a more Tom Cruise look. There goes Marilyn career, millions of dollars and along with all the love from his fans.
A good product manager will know how to interpret the business needs and have respect for the recommendations of the team and balance them for the best decision.
The issue is not developers, designers or anybody on the team saying “No”, it’s collaborating, sharing information and respecting each-other’s strengths.
In your next column, will you offer job-search tips to junior and mid-level devs who get fired for uncritically following your advice?
I’d agree that unless something violates our ethical boundary, simply saying “No” is not professional, it’s the signature of a bigot.
Part of a professional’s job is to advise. The client has the final say, and a good professional is an effective communicator who is able to truly understand what it is the client is trying to acheive, and express the benefits and drawbacks of ideas at hand in a way the client can understand.
If you get overruled and in the end the client is still happy, your worry over prinicples was moot. So, it’s not the way you would have done it… So what. If it turned out that the client wasn’t happy then it becomes (in much nicer terms) an “I told you so” situation. People learn through mistakes, clients included. “Because I/we know better” isn’t a constructive attitude. It might work for a crankity old veteran, but for most young-blood developers it is a sign of friction. The nail that stands up either gets hammered or pulled out completely and replaced.
Great Article. Thanks for point it out. I really see that this happens every day…
@unclebob I mostly agree. However, incredibly smart people often disagree as well. So, as a community, how do we know what lines should never be crossed, and which ones can be sacrificed to accomplish a larger goal?
@unclebob Another interesting post bob, but I don’t think people are always in the economic or hierarchical position to say “no” without suffering a lot of negative consequences. Sometimes companies just want the cash from the client and will play along with whatever a paying customer wants to do.
Excellent. Not saying “NO” (or at least negotiating) is a “dereliction of duty” for a software professional.
enti reply ledhu
> Even though the patient is the boss, the patient expects the doctor to have the answers and help set the direction.
The patient stopped being the boss a long time ago. The patient gets in line, and waits and waits, and finally accepts the doctor’s word as final. Of course, the doctor (and the medical system) never tells the patient what the alternate diagnosis could be and what the treatment options are.
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I’d agree that unless something violates our ethical boundary, simply saying “No” is not professional, it’s the signature of a bigot.
Great post. In the early days of internet commerce, I recall one particularly funny story. On the order page, if the customer did not click submit, but closed the window, the client wanted the order to go through anyway. One consulting team told them no, there are certain web guidelines and standards to follow, and you shouldn’t do that because the customer is indicating they changed their mind. Because of this and other differences, the client brought another consulting team in, and they did want he wanted, and of course there were huge problems.
I think this shows the distinction between the relationship between a laborer and a boss, vs. a software professional and a client. The professional/consultant, as an expert, helps guide the customer – that’s why they get paid.
The laborer on the other hand, blindly does the bosses bidding, while secretly hating their job. I would be a bit shocked as a client of this cartoonist to seem how he has ridiculed his customers by incorporating them into his cartoon. Very poor taste, very unprofessional, and not very funny. But it is quite clear – better cartoonist than web developer, that much can be said.
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The laborer on the other hand, blindly does the bosses bidding, while secretly hating their job. I would be a bit shocked as a client of this cartoonist to seem how he has ridiculed his customers by incorporating them into his cartoon. Very poor taste, very unprofessional, and not very funny. But it is quite clear – better cartoonist than web developer, that much can be said.
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It is great, thanks your post.
its sound like children story “saying no!”
I would be a bit shocked as a client of this cartoonist to seem how he has ridiculed his customers by incorporating them into his cartoon.
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This is a great and very valuable information about The difference between a laborer and a professional is that a laborer takes orders from his boss, and a professional provides input to his superiors. Thank you very much for sharing this information with us.
Thanks.
This really made me remember my studies in navy school. They use to order and we obeys it. No voice for the word NO
I also want to experience a responsible doctor. When physical problems, if a doctor well enough, it may destroy the patient’s life.
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Made the schools for No
This is an inspirational and fantastic writing for other writers and artists to follow; thanks for sharing.
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It’s realy a funny cartoon, but I don’t found a sad story.. Sorry
But I agree with your definition a professional. A professional in your definition is someone who educates and explains why a choice may or may not be in the client’s best interest.
It’s realy a funny cartoon, but I don’t found a sad story.. Sorry
All, i hope we can move past the “I’m not a victim”and “fight the power”. The programmer has a work ethic but so does the boss. You need both to make optimum decisions.
funny… but why “NO”? you can say “YES”
Sometimes it is difficult to say no
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I think this shows the distinction between the relationship between a laborer and a boss, vs. a software professional and a client. The professional/consultant, as an expert, helps guide the customer – that’s why they get paid.
It is better be smarty than politically correct.
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Doctors also do things that are basically stupid sometimes when patients demand it—like giving antibiotics when it’s not needed. Perhaps less of that now that there’s focus on antibiotic resistance, but 30 years ago, I guess there were lots of doctors who would humor patients on something they considered basically useless but harmless. The degree of harm is crucial.
The professional/consultant, as an expert, helps guide the customer – that’s why they get paid. This is really good for the people.
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This is happening to everyone of us all the time. But are times that we have to say “no”. But you have to explain your position why you come up with saying no. It is not healthy in the office if employees just always say yes all the time because higher management will not know if it right or wrong to d it.
Yup, being a laborer is pretty shitty…when saying NO is applicable when you have another source of income cause you don’t want to get fired
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Saying no and then face getting fired? What type of advice is that? Sounds like a zealot’s advice to me.
It almost feels like the programmers need to make an oath to “do no harm”, as well as doctors.
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If I get told to do something unprofessional I’ll put up a fight, but only to a point. There’s only one person who pays my bills (even if his software company works for many clients) and the best I can do is, over time, demonstrate where they went wrong and I was right. But it’s a really slow process. cheap VPS Maybe one day we’ll have a software profession. But not yet. Going back to the doctor analogy, people are much of a muchness. Software might look much the same from the outside, but it would be difficult to set up a business where you’ve a Java job, then a Perl job, then a Ruby, then a… well, you get the idea. Even though being a software developer is much the same from job to job, there’s enough of a barrier-to-entry for each job that means that clients end up sticking with the same developers, and developers end up working on the same products.
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There is never anything wrong with saying no if it violates what you believe in. Just be ready for the reaction…
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It almost feels like the programmers need to make an oath to “do no harm” as well as doctors. Great article! It’s a very creative way to use those stuff and turn it into something beautiful and worth money. Great job
laborer. The fiasco at the end was his fault. He should have said “No.” and started a negotiation with his customer instead of just doing everything the
: P funny and sad. I lived through the sprawling growth of a program. The small company, I was the only programmer. Every time I’ve implemented a function of head-ordered, there would be no destructive criticism asking me to rebuild something else. The business is now, as far as I can tell, on the verge of death. Thanks for the information and great ideas. Keep on believing in your dreams and you will achieve success..good luck.
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sad story that happens all too often in our profession. But who, exactly, was
Just say NO! haha….thats what my momma always told me.. :)
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I agree with the whole thing is a professional, but what about the fact that in the cartoon, the customer was happy with the result? I don’t think that this type can challenge the same new product from another company. Farewell it’s not really bad also.
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Very very good post. Very well done uncle bob. I truly agree that the professional is at equal fault. In today’s modern day slavery concept, we’ve become so dependent on the things like to impress your boss and to say yes when he wants you to say yes. I believe that is not what you spend your hours and money in college and university to do. We study and aim to make a difference. But at the end of the day are consumed into the same masses who are labor minded, following orders. We rip every thought on innovation and change from our minds to make space for all the ‘yes’s we are to say to everything. A professional should aim to weigh all possibilities and if the chosen option or situation says that you must disagree, then a professional should say no. Saying no won’t affect your skills. In this strange era it might hurt your job a little if your working under someone who is not accustomed to hearing that but in the long run you will feel quite content that you stood by your belief and your knowledge and your experience when you said no. Thanks for this.
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If you’re really honest with yourself as a designer you’ll find you object to the rejection of your layout and artwork as much as you do to the new concepts.
I am agar with ladies hat’s opinion that sometimes it looks very difficult to say no but you have to say no because you don’t have its substitute. Its really been a very hectic and i think no one want to face this situation.
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last year, I wrote about the same thing.
This article reminded me of movie Yes Man, that was a funny movie though. But yes, we all need to have the right to say no. This improves professionalism, however, its not good to always say no to somebody you don’t like. Many times personal disliking cause trouble in relationships.
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I’m not sure it’s really a question of saying “No” as much as it is of helping the boss arrive at a meaningful “Yes,”
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Fast decisions aren`t right.
If they say “no” to your boss, make sure you know about all the consequences, not only the consequences of the developer. I hope we can leave behind the ‘I’m not a victim’and “fight” power. The programmer has a work ethic, but so does the boss. It is necessary both to make optimal decisions. I love this topics as well as the post.But if u do it in english that will be better
more designers need to take care to make sure their clients are a good fit for them; not just the client checking to see if the designer is a good fit for their needs.
Sometimes companies just want the cash from the client and will play along with whatever a paying customer wants to do.
Yes, but … for someone who is a programmer and be treated as a worker rather than a professional (as is the case with many if not most programmers), I would not recommend saying ‘NO’ and be fired. It is better to get another job first, which says ‘NO’ is not a risk to survival. I have never thought that surfing online can be so much beneficial and having found your blog, I feel really happy and grateful for providing me with such priceless information.
The only thing the designer did not do was advise his client unless against the dark path I wanted to follow. If he did, he would have to do your due diligence. I am leaving a company where my decisions are constantly overridden by the “expert on the subject” (his words) and during my tenure I have informed me, torn down and later charged with their decisions. So I’m going. But while he was paying, I was responsible for making what the customer was paying me to do. All we can not walk. :) And the team is likely to make it happen, especially with the mixed skills and competencies.
The customer was happy with the result? I don’t think that this type can challenge the same new product from another company. Farewell it’s not really bad also dean guitars
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Who cares. We can’t imagine this conversation between a patient and a doctor. it is nothing. I think.
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If they say “no” to your boss, make sure you know about all the consequences, not only the consequences of the developer.
Some people want to do like that. You know. But I am not sure.
To be fair, the author in his commentary says things like: “After reviewing 13, who fired to the client. That sounds rather like saying ‘no’ to me. I’m not sure the analogy is appropriate Doctor. Doctors have a protected profession, and many customers. If you send away to someone who wants to cut his arm, then there is another customer in the waiting room. If I say I’ll do anything unprofessional to give battle, but only so far . Only one person who pays my bills (even if your software company working for many clients) and the best I can do is, over time, prove them wrong and I was right. But it is a slow process . Maybe one day we will have a software profession. But not yet. Returning to the analogy of a doctor, people are more or less the same. Software may look very similar from the outside, but it would be difficult to establish a business that has worked in Java, then a work of Perl, a ruby, then a. .. well, you get the idea. You’re right. Healthy is one of the most expensive thing in our life. Keep it well in anytime.
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Often we know better than the manager. But the manager also know things that we don’t know. Things that actually put money in your pockets.
And when I say “down” I mean, “close to power.” There is no debate about the decision. I have heard about the progress. They are doing pretty well, you know. Thanks for the pics!
The professional could have said NO until they were blue in the face, but at the end – the client took over the work they paid for and ruined it.
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this task is too hard linked to the framework by which a decision is made on whether the effort should be spent fixing things or if you can only get by with a few bits of mono-patches
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Programmers are professionals. They know more about designing and implementing software systems than their bosses do. Indeed, they are hired for this knowledge and expertise. And they have a solemn duty to prevent their managers from doing things that would be harmful.
I disagree with several points. Unlike a doctor, we are paid to do what the customer wants, not what they feel is “better.” As a professional, so I always give my opinion, in writing, with justification and support. I do not argue, advise me. Easy. They are paying for my experience, expertise and skill. I give them what they pay. In the end, if you still want a piece of garbage that do or have to leave. If I’m in a meeting and tell my boss: ‘No, I will not do that because …’, they would be out the door like most people. I say ‘I do not think it’s a good solution because ….’. The web designer is in the same position. While the principles are big high hard for me to use this to pay the rent. Sometime, somewhere, you are doing quality work that results in an ugly product. How to draw the line in any code that, somehow, cheating, spying, stealing or infect a customer, or reduce system security. I’d rather be fired to be accomplices. (I alre There are other measures of self-respect for a man, than the number of clean shirts he puts on every day.
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Which of these two doctors would you rather be? Now project these two doctors into your own profession, and which would you rather be?
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this task is too hard linked to the framework by which a decision is made on whether the effort should be spent fixing things or if you can only get by with a few bits of mono-patches
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Often we know better than the manager. But the manager also know things that we don’t know. Things that actually put money in your pockets.
This long essay attempts to summarize the non-technical things that I wish someone had explained to me at the beginning of my career as a professional programmer. It is primarily concerned with social situations and team relationships that occur in typical software development.
so I’m wondering if my mapping of functions to data structures is odd.
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fundamental flaw in his argument treats anyone as a professional programmer. The only reason that we call “professionals” is why we do not have to pay us overtime, but in reality they want us to be trained lemurs with keyboards. At the time I was arrested I had no idea it would turn into this. It was just a day like any other day. The only thing that made it significant was that the masses of the people joined in.
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Great point, Bob. I’m not sure it’s really a matter of saying “no” much like the head to help get a sense yes, as suggested by the medical analogy arm /. For some reason, the job of dredging up an old memory. In the 80’s I was supporting a large-scale OLTP application running on CICS. My boss is approaching the day and said, ‘I want to put the master file of all in a line of storage temperature. “In the context of the old software, storage temperature could be used for memory storage of small amounts of data at hand from CICS tasks. What the boss asked, literally, would have caused the installation of temporary storage DASD use due to the amount of data involved. She did not know. I asked, ‘Are you sure you want the master file in a queue of storage temperature as such, or are planning to minimize I / S maintenance expense of more data in memory? She replied: ‘Yes, that. “We were able to save the arm. You can’t live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.
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In the example of doctor is a straw man. Here’s why: “Programmers are professional. They know more about the design and implementation of software systems that their bosses do. In fact, they are hired for their knowledge and experience. And they have a solemn duty to prevent their managers do things that would be harmful. Building a website, bad, or bad software system, it is not harmful. Silly maybe. A waste of time, probably. But it is not really harmful. When I was EE finishing my career had a lot of lessons on professionalism and ethics and such. The theme of disobedience was covered by an engineer to consent to a boss who wants to use cheaper, inferior quality bolts on a bridge could make people die. An engineer who bows to pressure to use thinner wires to save money could cause a fire. It is objective questions – the effectiveness of a pin or wire thinner poor is easily derived and tested. websites and marketing in general are subjective practices. In the In every year, at least they get one job with a long duration, that’s a nice reputation for a new comer in this section. They can be one of developing team of the year.
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Great article. This is why my main advice to developers, even before reading Clean Code:) – is to get your finances in order for them to be able to say no and mean it. In the longer term, however, I agree – we have to work hard to make this norm among a majority of the people. If people would like doctor shop software store today to tell them what they want to hear, probably. We have to do ‘programmer shopping “more difficult. There many new graduated designer, and I think they have a big opportunities in this job. Sometimes they have a great job even they are still new in the real project.
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All this boils down to one simple thing. Professionals are willing to say “No”. When their managers come to them with direction that makes no sense, a professional programmer will refuse the direction.
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All this boils down to one simple thing. Professionals are willing to say “No”. When their managers come to them with direction that makes no sense, a professional programmer will refuse the direction.
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Indeed, they are hired for this knowledge and expertise. And they have a solemn duty to prevent their managers from doing things that would be harmful.
Part of a professional’s job is to advise. The client has the final say, and a good professional is an effective communicator who is able to truly understand what it is the client is trying to acheive, and express the benefits and drawbacks of ideas at hand in a way the client can understand.
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This is why legal contracts are always so important in the work place, I have heard about too any situations similar to the one you mentioned, which would have been resolved had there been a contract of employment drawn up upon the start of the job.
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It may have been a light-hearted cartoon, but there is a genuine point in there which has been made, figure it out!
The difference between a laborer and a professional is that a laborer takes orders from his boss, and a professional provides input to his superiors. Laborers are hired to take direction. Professionals are hired to ensure that the direction chosen makes sense.
This is a great and very valuable information about The difference between a laborer and a professional is that a laborer takes orders from his boss, and a professional provides input to his superiors. Thank you very much for sharing this information with us.
While I do agree with your post, there is a couple clients I have worked with that still provide resistance and stubbornness. I’m happy to say that most people I work with are always willing to hear me out and take direction from me and my knowledge on the subject- but even with any amount of proof, they still insist on doing things ‘their way’.
I disagree with several points. Unlike a Doctor, we are paid to do what the client wants, not what we feel is “best”. As a professional, I always give what is my opinion, in writing, with reasons and backing. I don’t argue, I advise. Calmly. They are paying for my experience, expertise and ability. I give them what they pay for.
All this boils down to one simple thing. Professionals are willing to say “No”. When their managers come to them with direction that makes no sense, a professional programmer will refuse the direction.
Is this risky? Sure. But part of being a professional is the willingness to stand on principle. There are lines that a professional will not cross.
The poor web-designer schmuck in that cartoon was not behaving as a professional. He was behaving as a laborer. The fiasco at the end was his fault. He should have said “No.” and started a negotiation with his customer instead of just doing everything the customer said.
Professionals are expected to explain their positions, and come up with viable alternatives. Professionals negotiate with their superiors until both parties are satisfied with the chosen direction.
Professionals negotiate with their superiors until both parties are satisfied with the chosen direction.
Professionals negotiate with their superiors until both parties are satisfied with the chosen direction..
He was behaving as a laborer. The fiasco at the end was his fault. He should have said “No.” and started a negotiation with his customer instead of just doing everything the customer said.
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Do not have a problem here. Everyone knows you need to negotiate with people to get their ‘way’, everyone has an opinion, and decide who has the gold. His eternal and extends for all businesses and all sectors. There is no problem that needs solving. Except .. Some designers get all hissy fitted and are jealous of their friends who get to work on cool projects or are capable of having “total artistic freedom.” Designers often have no idea about the company that is designing for because the only thing that matters is your wallet. Good designers try to understand the business and the public, and are always trying to get ‘aligned’ with the client because the client is the expert in the business. The cartoon allows designers to wallow in self pity and it’s fun. There is advice on how to be a really good designer. His parody of helping young and inexperienced designers vent while reconciling his “vision” to reality (also known as “ripening”) Thanks. Maybe the price should be balanced with gov intervention,. The invisible hand “formula” doesn’t work all the time.
While I do agree with your post, there is a couple clients I have worked with that still provide resistance and stubbornness. I’m happy to say that most people I work with are always willing to hear me out and take direction from me and my knowledge on the subject- but even with any amount of proof, they still insist on doing things ‘their way’. That being said, I think more designers need to take care to make sure their clients are a good fit for them; not just the client checking to see if the designer is a good fit for their needs. A relationship works two ways and if only one side is working, the outcome of the project or relationship never turns out as well as either side intends. Cool application it is. I believe users are so excited to know this. It has been a while too since we last had a new one.
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It’s really important to say ‘No’ when someone feels that the direction that he has been asked to follow is not right and will cause harm to the organization. The illustration with the example of a doctor is also apt because doctors strongly feel about something they believe and do not hesitate to protest if they feel the decision will cause harm to the patient.
It’s a funny cartoon, and a sad story that happens all too often in our profession. But who, exactly, was at fault?...
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They know more about designing and implementing software systems than their bosses do. Indeed, they are hired for this knowledge and expertise.
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First version of the story doctor-patient is a bit sadistic !
these two letters – no – they are very important! We show that we know how to make decisions, think, think something is a refusal in advance on! However your doctor in the example should be a little crazy!
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