Thanks for putting this up. I didn’t know how to read Stephen’s article as I don’t think there was a clear enough distinction between the activities he’s describing as unit testing and TDD. It seemed like an odd mixture between unit testing, TDD, acceptance testing and a dash of BDD. There were one or two comments that left me scratching my head.

Anyways, I am happily doing TDD of which unit tests are the by-product. Nothing wrong with that.

...Like tags. As in a test might fulfil more than one purpose or be relevant for more than one point of focus, much like the tags we use on blog posts. (or is that what you meant by label?)

Just read Stephen’s blog… I think he’s trying to get things clear in his own head… (nothing wrong with that… it’s one of the things I use my blog for)...

Beck pre-empts this debate in TDD by example by clarifying that by unit tests he means ‘small-scale tests’ rather than the ‘traditional definition of unit tests’.

Perhaps a better starting point for Stephen might have been “TDD tests are sometimes unit tests and sometimes more”... (Although, I can’t remember the last time I felt the need for a “TDD test” to use concrete collaborators… I find Test-First Acceptance Tests tend to flush out integration oversights adequately).

I think the number of names for the different tests comes from its uses. Developers write unit test. QA run functional tests. They also do smoke tests. But I made developers run the smoke tests prior to moving the build to QA.

So the jargon is out there, and everybody uses it differently. There are some terms that are more clear to most people (I believe) like black-box testing. The more we discuss these it will become clearer, and that’s why I welcome Stephen’s post. Even if I don’t agree with everything he says. But the discussion has its way of strengthening the definition overtime.

Perfect summation – and was (essentially) the point I was raising on his blog. It was a decent discussion until he decided to twist my words for me and then deleted all comments.

Weak, weak maneuver. Complete professional disrespect and I work with the guy. Go figure.

There are many ways to think of tests – Stephen had a valid point to make but he never made it. I kept expecting a “therefore…” and it didn’t come.

/unsub for me and as far as I’m concerned, my conversations with him are over.

“taxonomy of testing” that’s heavenly.

I think of my TDD tests as both unit tests and sample test-runs of the interfaces/classes I build. In the past, when it was much harder to unit test C++, I would write the top-most-level code first, in order to figure out exactly what functions I needed on the objects that code used – that’s exactly how I use TDD, and I think is the primary reason to use TDD. I forget, but I may have a good post about that up on my blog. If not, I have one in the works.

I think if you’re not able to use your TDD tests as unit tests, then you’ve lost some of the power of TDD. Admittedly, it’s not what I consider the most important part of TDD, but it is a very nice aspect. I think I consider Walther’s post to be mostly artificial. There may or may not be something there, but he certainly (as Rob points out) did not make a point. It may be that I’m just defining unit test differently than he is, though.

Reminds me of a comment on Ward’s Wiki

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SixThinkingHats

‘They are not classifications for thoughts which have already occurred’

I think the important thing is that a team understand the naming convention. If different teams are calling things differently, then it is not that big a deal. I know I sometimes struggle with the naming – what is an acceptance test, can a functional test be an acceptance test? I like calling tests that are created in an iteration “acceptance tests” but they can be different types of tests – performance, security, functional, etc.

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“Why is it so confusing? There are are a couple of reasons”

- Actualy, it is not so confusing. It’s all depends on your point of view. However, very good post!

Cheers!

I always outsource big testing, I know I could know the stuff myself, but I have chosen the simpler road :)

Yeah same here – outsourcing is the key to all big project and testing, but I always first learn the stuff myself so I would not be screwed hard, and this is the usual happening for people who throw the big money in and find that all the money is spent for nothing! JoHnV

it is really complicated.

I always outsource big testing, I know I could know the stuff myself, but I have chosen the simpler road – yeah this is my style too – and this is a good tactic because then you have more free time for other business development work…

I also welcome Stephen’s post. Even if I don’t agree with everything he says. But the discussion has its way of strengthening the definition overtime.

When testing, you need to reveal all the variables, otherwise it’s not reliable, for sure.

This is so true. I doubt there will be tests that are easily distinguishable any time soon. It would be nice, though, wouldn’t it?

Most problems happens before testing, nice post anyway!

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Most problems happens before testing, nice post anyway!

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I like calling tests that are created in an iteration “acceptance tests” but they can be different types of tests – performance, security, functional, etc.

This was a good read, kinda early in the morning though. Should do some work Laughing lol

I think the number of names for the different tests comes from its uses. Developers write unit test. QA run functional tests. They also do smoke tests. But I made developers run the smoke tests prior to moving the build to QA.

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I think of my TDD tests as both unit tests and sample test-runs of the interfaces/classes I build. In the past, when it was much harder to unit test C++, I would write the top-most-level code first, in order to figure out exactly what functions I needed on the objects that code used – that’s exactly how I use TDD, and I think is the primary reason to use TDD. I forget, but I may have a good post about that up on my blog. If not, I have one in the works.

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