You get bit once, but have you seen anyone leave it in on purpose?

- Paddy.

So is that link up at the top supposed to point back to this article? Just curious :-)

Kevin

Ooops. Fixed now. Thanks. —tim

I’ve not used it on purpose. So far as I know, I’ve not seen it used on purpose. I’ve accidentally used it a few times. The tinker in me wants to try using it on purpose, and the professional refuses. Yet another case of ambivalence.

Two comments. First, the or isn’t a hack. It’s a standard Python idiom, although it looks a bit strange to someone who doesn’t have a lot of Python experience.

Second, having a mutable object as a parameter is definitely a gotcha for most Python programmers. The interesting thing is that it could be used as a way of getting a persistent variable into a method (local in some languages). However, I’ve never seen it used that way, and I’d be a bit leery of doing it myself except in programs that are part of a project where all the developers are comfortable with the idiom, and where the code isn’t expected to leave the project.

John Roth

I wonder if this was a deliberate decision, to aid with recursion?

Once again, I have to point out that Lisp had this first :-). I remember (way) back in the day having this explained to me by none other than David Moon. For pythonistas, this is like seeing a noob post responded to by Guido.

Anyway, Ruby has a similar idiom:

somevar ||= default_val

although the ‘or’ syntax would work as well. I think the ’||’ version is a bit more noticeable.

matthew: almost certainly not.

I wonder how Python and professional fit together ;-)

@JustRanting:

I guess about like this:

http://www.google.com/search?q=python+professional&;ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Or this: http://www.google.com/trends?q=python%2C+professional&;ctab=0&hl=en

Or maybe this: http://www.google.com/search?q=professional+python+job&;ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

There is actually a lot more python out there than you think there is. And probably less than I hope. ;-)

I know it’s late, but I came across this page from Google, so in case someone else would look into it…

Your own “fix” is incorrect, because an empty list evaluates to False in Python, so that if you try to use your function to append some item to an existing, yet empty, list, it won’t work.

Excellent catch. Should have checked that it was None instead. thank you for the update!

So far as I know, I’ve not seen it used on purpose. I’ve accidentally used it a few times. The tinker in me wants to try using it on purpose, and the professional refuses.

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I won’t discuss it all the specs-specific details here, but hopefully you’ll get the general idea of what it’s doing.

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Having a mutable object as a parameter is definitely a gotcha for most Python programmers. The interesting thing is that it could be used as a way of getting a persistent variable into a method

Your own “fix” is incorrect, because an empty list evaluates to False in Python, so that if you try to use your function to append some item to an existing, yet empty, list, it won’t work.

The interesting thing is that it could be used as a way of getting a persistent variable into a method (local in some languages).

def function(item, stuff = []): stuff = list(stuff) stuff.append(item) print stuff

It’s rare that you should be modifying parameters, even when they aren’t defaults. Returning copies is safer.

I don’t really like the new solution. It means that a new empty list gets created if you pass ””, 0, (), [], {}, False, basically anything python considers a false value. It might be OK if you don’t expect of these, but that’s a special case. Better just to make the None explicit.

Use of “stuff = stuff or []” is, indeed, too clever. If the caller passes None or a list with items it works as desired. If the caller passes an empty list it uses a DIFFERENT empty list, but that’s probably acceptable, at least for most uses. But if the caller passes something list-like (a sequence with append()) it will work 90% of the time but fail in the corner case where an empty collection is passed (because it’ll use the list instead of the empty collection). The very unexpectedness of this makes it an unfair trick to play on callers. Go with the straightforward “if stuff is None: stuff = []” instead.

I was just going to say that I changed it to None and checked the state of the variable… but you guys beat me to it!

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