agreed… though how much can the languages change if the underlying hardware is a calculator?

Agreed, but you have to consider that:

“Practical mathematics has been a human activity for as far back as written records exist” (accordingly to wikipedia about math). So it took time for Newton to come out with calculus. Considering software is a relatively new way to solve contemporary problems, it’ll probably take time for this watershed. Hope I’m wrong.

Um… I don’t think that was quite the point of that paradox. We haven’t exactly “solved” it, either. It’s a logical deal…

I think the Arrow in flight paradox is a fun take:

* The Arrow Paradox

Zeno’s arrow paradox appears to show that motion is impossible.

It works by taking a snapshot of an arrow at a point (either in space or in time) in its flight. At that point, and at every other, the arrow is motionless. If there is no point, spatially or temporally, at which the arrow is moving, though, then the arrow is motionless. Contrary to appearances, an arrow in flight cannot move.

*

Contrary to appearances (apparently) I think we’ve been evolving /constantly/.

From “inside” it may seem like not much is changing, but holy cow, how things have changed!

And seem to be changing faster, but maybe that’s an illusion. ;)

While it’s an exciting and hopeful notion, I have to ask:

Why is it inevitable? Why MUST it be coming?

It sounds delightful and I’d love to be around to see it. But aside from frustration with working on projects measured in ‘mlocs’ instead of ‘klocs’ I don’t see ‘us’ pushing towards a strata change of that nature.

I don’t think it’s just “one” thing. I think it’s a combination of a lot of ideas, that are constantly refined and combined with other ideas.

To look for that “one” change is to look at the one moment in time and to see motion (the arrow ref).

Or something like that.

I don’t think such a mythical beast exists in the way you present it.

What we are involved in is a rich branch of discrete mathematics that allows many kinds of abstractions already. We will learn more about the capabilities by solving some of the unsolved problems like P=NP. However the overall nature is not really going to change. I don’t think there is a magical abstraction thats going to be any more magic than the kinds of abstractions we have already created, and quite likely, keep creating.

However the kinds of “programming” we may be able to do with genetic materials might create the magic you are wanting? But it will be an entirely different beast. Or possibly at a quantum level we may find and entirely different beast also, where we break out of the branch of mathematics we are in.

The problem lies with the programming community. It is dealing with a static set of rules that work. As humans we take the easy or known way to solve problems every time. Fable: a society wants to experience the most amazing music ever made so they take the child of talented musicians as a baby and allow him to grow up, surrounded by musical instruments as toys but never allowing him to hear another’s work or have a teacher teach him how to play the instruments. The society enjoyed wonderful, inventive music for as long as the child remained pure. But on the day he heard another musicians music, he began to mimic and his music lost it’s charm.

You want to change programming? – lose the rules.

“You want to change programming?—lose the rules.”

We Forth programmers have been trying to tell you that since the 60s. You keep laughing at us. Now that you thought up this hip little sound-bite, you think it’s cool all of a sudden? I don’t know if I should be flattered that you’re finally coming around or deeply offended for taking what’s rightfully our position in the programming community as your own while concurrently maintaining Forth’s unsuitability as a genuine programming tool.

Seriously, though . . .

The problem isn’t with the software or the language used to write it. The problem is with the equipment we’re given in the best case, and just plain reality in the worst. Von Neumann and Harvard architectures, and indeed pretty much anything based on Church or lambda expressions like data-flow engines and the like, absolutely will suffer from the very conceptual bottlenecks Uncle Bob speaks of.

They operate according to a finite vocabulary, the words of which programming languages are intended to combine in useful ways. You can only express that which is expressable in the most basic of forms.

Since no machine language, data flow or otherwise, can process an infinite amount of data in infinitesimally small amounts of time, you’re just plain going to have to deal with sequential behavior. Period.

(And, even if such hardware DID exist, Amdahl’s Law will limit how much you can apply this new-fangled hardware anyway.)

And if we agree that sequential execution and notation is inherent in the design (notice that my words are laid out sequentially, and that I can communicate only one thought at a time), it follows directly that iteration will just have to do as a substitute for operating on collections of things. The fact that it takes you time to read my paragraphs (that is, to iterate over them) one after another is proof enough that iteration will always be with us.

And, one of the problems facing quantum computing now is precisely the problem of selection. How DO you make a general purpose quantum computer without it? You have two ways: you either program it (e.g., you “select” what it can do at any given time), or you have it evaluate the entirety of all solutions to all problems, and you somehow “select” the one you want. In either case, you’re dealing with selection. Iteration requires selection to control the scope of the domain of items you’re working with, and selection is required for sequential execution so you don’t execute the wrong instructions.

We should not be looking for ways to avoid SSI. We should be looking for ways to embrace it to our advantage, to recognize that writing programs == discrete math, NOT analysis.

The only way to work around SSI is to rely on computers where programs != discrete math, which basically implies analog computing. But, again, how do you make a general purpose analog computer without selection?

I would think that step would be synaptic programming, where solutions are ‘programmatically’ stumbled upon through trial and error, through applying the collective intelligence of what has come before through associations to what is trying to be solved now.

When programs act like minds then we may have something new.

We already have the missing abstraction. SICP refers to it as metalinguistic abstraction. The reason that we haven’t noticed it yet is that computer science (unlike mathematics) is governed by those who are popular, not those who are rigorous.

I didn’t quite follow the last bit about prolog. As long as it is software that will execute on today’s hardware, it will be expressible as SSI. Isn’t the challenge not to write software thats inexpressible as purely SSI but to not be bound to just SSI.

While conceptualizing the solution to a problem or describing our solution, we would like a richer vocabulary. But it should not dismay us that this can be re-expressed as merely SSI, perhaps at the cost of being longer or harder to understand.

We could change the way we think about software and hardware, indeed. Studies have shown that symmetrical ternary computer hardware (as opposed to our binary stuff) implements addition and substraction in much simpler ways. Some ternary marchines exist buried deep down russian university labs. I’m giving this as an example, as well as I could have talked about q-computers.

For now, we have to accomodate everything that’s already existing, be it hardware, software, or knowledge accumulated on our binary way of thinking.

When we are programming a solution to a problem in a given language on a given target platform, nowadays, what we are looking for is not only a result, but a result that can be achieved in a predictably finite amount of time. SSI gives predictability, as the resulting mathematical state is a direct function of the input mathematical state that can be reached in a really short amount of time.

There are sound mathematical models that exist to embrace the complexity of SSI programs, with practical results. You may want to look up Pr. Martin Ward’s WSL and Fermat engine for expressing and performing program transforms. This mathematical model has incredibly few kernel constructs (7, counting atoms and composition), and everything is layered on top of it in a proven manner. These constructs are a radical shift from mainstream thought, as two of them are unimplementable on their own. (“guards”, that remove ambiguities in previous statements, and “undeterministic branching” that states that at some point in the program, two branches may be the “next part”) This language enables one to prove correctness of program transforms. Yet, the model resorts to first-order infinitary logic to express loop weakest preconditions, and is unable to perform automatic proof for anything that involves loop. All proofs still have to be made by humans.

My point with the previous paragraph is: SSI is already expressable as mathematics, with rather simple/puny/lousy mathematical tools compared to what’s available. The problem would be, instead of simply thinking in terms of sequence, to reintroduce mathematics into computer programs.

Eiffel does this with the specific purpose of expressing contracts. The C++ committee wants to be able to express program transforms through “concepts” and “axioms”, expressing mathematical knowledge into rewrite rules for the compiler. On the opposite, “Lambdas” (sic) have been introduced into the C# language, yet they are merely syntactically sweetened anonymous functions that are not first-order citizens, with nothing fundamentally mathematical about them.

It’s true, I’d like to be able to express mathematical truths about a chess board and have a bug-free chess program that is able to tell me the possible moves in a given position, and to fold the alpha-beta tree just by reasoning. All this, in a predictably finite amount of time. Not possible yet, and I doubt it will in any close future.

I nominate javascript method chaining as the missing abstraction. jquery & nodejs mean even a syntax-leery designer like me can code both client & server. oh, and it seems to perform pretty well as a bonus.

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I think you need to re-evaluate functional programming, and especially some of the stuff going on in the outer reaches of Haskell. Type-directed programming and Functional Reactive Programming (FRP) spring to mind as paradigms that are not just about sequencing, selection and iteration.

Also, think about what a 17th century shipwright would have said about differential calculus.

A very interesting article, however the more interesting thing will be the leap that takes us forward.

As a mathematics graduate, I remember back in school first being shown calculus and seeing it as merely a solution to a particular problem – namely how to find the slope of a graph of a non-linear function. Similarly the leap forward here may not be some grand new software design but something that may in fact be a solution to a particular problem.

For example, let us take neural networks. They are currently something used to solve particular problems where non-standard algorithms take a long time. Granted they are a lot more than this but one of their primary solutions at the moment is to identify patterns that emerge. If a neural network could be built that was more generally adaptive however and followed a more natural way of working as a neural system then it could be taught to do a lot of the jobs which are often performed by standard software as algorithms (if we have this type of setup then do this else do this and then for each on of these objects do this etc.)

Reminds me of a talk a recently viewed by Douglas Crockford http://fr.video.yahoo.com/watch/529579/2724346

I’m not sure what the OP is asking for. If Prolog is not “something more than a simple reorganization of sequence, selection, and iteration” because “an algorithm expressed in prolog can be translated into any of the other languages, demonstrating the eventual equivalence,” then I think all of mathematics is just a reorganization of SSI as well, because it can be translated into Prolog or C# or some other language. Indeed, much of it has been translated to a computer language.

Underlying computer hardware runs sequence, jump, and unconditional jump. If you want to get away from selection and iteration, you could just use goto’s. Then you’re “simplifying” the language with which you express programs. But you’re giving up a higher level of abstraction that, though more complex in itself, simplifies the process of actually getting a program right.

We have many other, elegant abstractions that are simple in themselves, powerfully expressive for a variety of purposes, and help us get our programs right. Major examples include true functions, structures (SSI), and method and type abstractions. I think these effectively do the job of calculus in math. In a few areas, we could certainly use some more things like these, and we need these, but I expect that no single one will be what calculus is for math.

I don’t think it’s logical at all to hope for some unspecified, unknown, unheard of advance in software that will change everything, not even knowing if such a thing could exist. The whole thing sounds kind of messianic to me, and I would point out that this is supposed to be a science, not a religion. We should not spend long days hoping for liberation from the limitations of our medium. If we think that we have some new idea for software, that’s great. Let’s build on it. If not, I think our only recourse is to try to overcome these limitations within the current paradigm. I am not at the point where I think that that is unreasonable.

Uncle Bob, did you forget Dijkstra’s Philosopher Stone? http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD898.html

If this revolutionary concept came, would you recognize it?

Well, programming is about solving problems. When you as a human recognize a solution (in real life as well), you think of it in algorithmic terms. Do this, then do that, and if this happens do that. All about SSI.

The only alternative would be software finding the solution for you. It’s hard to think of a reasonable possibility in this direction…

It’s a little more incremental than you are making it out to be. You are right that it was all just ways of organizing abstracting adding and testing up until calculus. I would argue that calculus itself is just another increment of abstraction built atop all of the other discoveries that preceded it and ultimately trickling down to the notion of adding and testing.

What distinguishes calculus from earlier attempts at math was not that it is somehow different, merely that it is better at solving certain problems. In other words: it was a small discovery with a big impact.

Software developers have made great strides in that front – the thought leadership in this industry has built us the tools we need to do this right. Sure. Something better will come along than the tools we have; that always happens. The real problem is education.

We are not struggling for want of abstractions. We are struggling because so few people use the really good set of tools we already have.

@Jason Y, its worth remember we approximate math on computers. Which is super useful. But has limits that the underlying math doesn’t.

I think good designed Object Oriented models encapsulates “Sequence, Selection, and Iteration”. I mean, a good object model should be seen as a set of different objects collaborating by sending messages. That is the metaphor that prevent us from thinking about SSI. There is not silver bullet, but good designers…

I mostly agree with Munch.

If logic programming is still considered SSI because it can be translated into SSI, then any language that can be executed on a Turing-equivalent machine is still SSI.

I suspect that software written for quantum computers could be executed on any Turing-equivalent machine, albeit more slowly and/or requiring much more memory space. Analog computing, which I know little about, would seem to be the only other possibility.

Neural nets are an interesting counter-example that could perhaps be consider an analog model if the weights were true real numbers rather than rational approximations. Would businesses really want to rely on software that has unpredictable results on novel inputs? We might be able to bound the error rate of a neural net, but I do not think we could ever guarantee an error rate of 0.

Bob,

I have to say I’m perplexed by what you’re saying or asking for. See http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4007#comment-60751

“For fifty years we have been inventing new … ways to organize SSI.”

All all of them are stiff and inflexible. What we’re discovering is that, in the end, we need to move toward lighter, more dynamic membership in sets. If we can weigh inclusion to be expression-based, we can make the jump in abstractions we need. For example, Kayia (http://www.kayia.org).

Perhaps you’re looking for this? http://vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm

@Keith, Certainly we approximate some math (e.g. arithmetic with floats, or deciding if a given class follows or violates LSP), but other math is exact (most arithmetic, boolean logic, dependency DAG’s, eliminating side effects, etc.).

Anyway, was that what you were talking about?

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‘At first look logic programming seems very different. In the end, however, an algorithm expressed in prolog can be translated into any of the other languages, demonstrating the eventual equivalence’

Well, unfortunately we are working on turing machines, so no matter what abstraction we think up this will always be the case. Unless some new technology comes along that is more powerful than a turing machine in what is calculable then your new concept will always fall down at this point. Currently, this is possibly either a Quantum Computer or (if that fails to be more than a turing machine) a Quantum Gravity Computer.

However, if you relax this constraint that it not be transformable into ‘traditional’ methods then your abstraction may be along quicker (I do agree that it hasn’t arrived yet… we haven’t had a paradigm shift that changed the fundamental way we think about software and programming, just incremental improvements in how we manage complexity)

“Some people have set their sights on quantum computing. While I’ll grant you that computations with bits that can be both states simultaneously is interesting, in the end I think this is just another hardware trick to increase throughput as opposed to a whole new way to think about software.”

I’d recommend reading up on quantum computing more, it is fundamentally different from existing (classical) computing. There are problems that can be solved with a quantum computer that you couldn’t do on a classical computer no matter how fast you made it.

Qubits (quantum bits) operate differently than classical bits. For example, measuring one qubit may impact the state of another via entanglement. Measurements are not reversible. You cannot copy the state of an arbitrary set of qubits (no-cloning) and so on. Classical programming doesn’t handle this well- hence all the work into developing new methods to program quantum computers.

Furthermore a quantum computer won’t have any increase in speed for many tasks.

Therefore quantum computing isn’t just another trick to squeeze out more speed. Additionally since it represents a whole new way of computing (bits vs qubits) it requires a new way to write software as well.

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It is true that Newton had reality on his side. Computer scientists have to deal with humans.

Nevertheless I do belive that there is something fundamentally different that may revolutionize computer programming.

I have a few ideas like doing away with the current notion of state in applications. It will be radical ideas that will bring about real change.

What about representing multiple threads and how the processing is allocated? The next step is creating a programming environment that can represent the code in many different forms at once using graphics concurrently with the editor. You should always be able to easily flip through the myriad of model form representations your code can take on. I have many ideas for how to do this and hopefully it will eventually allow me to retire.

Perhaps I’m being a bit thick, but what problem would this new level of abstraction solve? It seems like we won’t find “Software Calculus” without first wrestling a while with our “Software Achilles and the Tortoise Paradox”.

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complaining about mathematics on the basis that it is “only addition” is like caviling about cheesecake for being made of only carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen. it’s the emergent properties, not the substrate.

there is nothing about calculus that isn’t reducible to addition, if you want to apply the same kind of “reasoning”, you know. you want a language that can express every possible idea in one word? we have that, it’s called the universe. oh, is it not quite as convenient as you might hope to manipulate? yeah, who would have guessed.

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“Practical mathematics has been a human activity for as far back as written records exist” (accordingly to wikipedia about math). So it took time for Newton to come out with calculus. Considering software is a relatively new way to solve contemporary problems, it’ll probably take time for this watershed. Hope I’m wrong.

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What I find lamentable about many developers is that when the abstraction moves out of their grasp they denigrate it as academic and useless.

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I liked your analogy re: algebra vs. calculus. But also consider some relevant work from Benoit B. Mandelbrot (most recently, author of “The Misbehavior of Markets”) and Nassim Nicholas Taleb (Distinguished Professor of Risk Engineering at NYU ’s Poly Institute) about the financial industry in particular. Calculus is only useful when there are not discontinuities in our functions, and the central limit theorem has been abused to allow every sample to be conveniently “normalized.”

Calculus can tell us certain things about certain kinds of functions…but if our models show smooth terrain and miss the crevices and even cliffs, we’re like Wile E. Coyote chasing the road runner.

We’re human. We want things to be simple but we do everything possible to make things complicated, through fragmentation, caprice, salesmanship and marketing, obfuscatory jargon and self-promotion.

Meanwhile, the useful statistical tools that are available seem to be gathering dust. We serve an executive class that has to know everything about every piece of data all the time. It’s never enough. They say it’s to satisfy and improve the business but really at the root of it is just the belief that whatever hot topic was discussed at the latest convention will translate to higher status and importance.

We say we want longevity, reusability, economy…but somehow it’s always about wanting it all and wanting it now, and when budgets are flush it doesn’t matter what it costs and when budgets are small, we settle and get by.

Millions of foreclosures were never considered to be core functions of mortgage banks, and yet here we are. Assessing states’ ability to remain solvent was never seriously calculated in bond investment models, and yet here we are. If the most beautiful edifice has a for sale sign in front of it and languishes in disrepair, what is the economic return on investment compared with a less pleasingly designed building?

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A nearby TV flash in the west of the table and update the Calgary flames team place-and Jokinen can continue his spiel with authority.

“Oh, we 12 th now,” Jokinen staring at the screen. “We’ve played 40 games. You shouldn’t be here with an excuse. It is not right, like, game 5 or whatever. Everyone should know this system. Everyone should know our coaches expect we can bring each night. Good thing we have 42 games http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/.

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The flame woke up in the third period, get target from Bourque (1:17) and Morrison (17:57, he is 200 years old) and make it close to bring Miikka Kiprusoff out of the net-this Kostitsyn formal filled with his third goal in three goals http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/.

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“Psychological hidden danger to us really,” Morrison said, his club is the 8-12-3 in enemy territory. “You the past goal and you a little shake your head, we want to in. Defense, we just don’t sharp….... http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/”

The flame of the failure to predators

http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ Ollie Jokinen, making a topic: the team’s post-holiday fade, want to let him after his speech with some weight. Gawking around, he gets his ammunition.

A nearby TV flash in the west of the table and update the Calgary flames team place-and Jokinen can continue his spiel with authority.

“Oh, we 12 th now,” Jokinen staring at the screen. “We’ve played 40 games. You shouldn’t be here with an excuse. It is not right, like, game 5 or whatever. Everyone should know this system. Everyone should know our coaches expect we can bring each night. Good thing we have 42 games http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ .

The flame woke up in the third period, get target from Bourque (1:17) and Morrison (17:57, he is 200 years old) and make it close to bring Miikka Kiprusoff out of the net-this Kostitsyn formal filled with his third goal in three goals http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ .

“Psychological hidden danger to us really,” Morrison said, his club is the 8-12-3 in enemy territory. “You the past goal and you a little shake your head, we want to in. Defense, we just don’t sharp….... http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ “

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Hay will make it a hit in the semi-final on Tuesday in Saddledome showdown. If this latest set team was Canada’s progress and gold-medal game, 57 years old, will have a record of all to himself http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ .

Hartsburg is that guy is responsible for sending Jonathan Toews three pieces of the board in the semi-finals of the United States to try and thriller in 2007. Backstopped Carey price, the team beat Russia Canada in the final two days later http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ .

According to gallagher, straw is to give up a second chance to make the most of the coach team Canada.

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Well, considering the Canadian began to do the choice of Brampton Wedgewood Scott; In view of Wedgewood has in his first two matches, began to Wedgewood most important game of the round robin, keep in a 3-2 victory over the United States in the New Year’s eve

Competently in Vistentin play more rotation, blowout wins Finland and Denmark is precious ruler. Although hay insist on Tuesday he keep his goaltenders are full of confidence, he admitted earlier in the game, the 2011 s luggage weight in the circle collapse http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ .

“No one let he forget, this very embarrassed him. It’s really tough, hay circle told reporters.” You should move on. Other people to be missing, not just the mark. It is hard to make him overcome it, because he’s getting thought of it. I think he played the game has been really good http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ . “

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http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ Russ Eller scored four goals, his season double output and Montreal Canadiens 50 seconds scored three goals in the third quarter as early as before leaving, pull the idle and win over Winnipeg jet appeared Wednesday night.

Three games in the first four nights, the airplane looks slower than normal and goalkeeper ondrej Pavelec struggled with his 13 th-place of capitalization of red tides, make them look bad http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ .

This is what “red tide” two win Cunneyworth temporary coach randy succeed Jacques Martin be fired before nine games.Pavelec gave up six goals in 24 shots before supported Chris mason.Eller scored his fourth penalty shot a beautiful night turned in mason. He made spinarama in front of the net, tucked into open side http://www.cheapbeatbydrdre.com/ .

Wheeler had power play than two minutes in the period into a 3-2, at that time, it looks like the plane may have some life. But they another late power waste, applied to the third.

Stapleton scored his career-high sixth goal of the season to the plane to a 1-0 lead. In a rebound after Stapleton exploded with a loud bang Evander linemate Kane slippery hard to beat a phone and tried a freeze in the price of uncle red tides, the goalkeeper Carey first stop Stapleton but could not explain, the edge of wrinkles.

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“Practical mathematics has been a human activity for as far back as written records exist” (accordingly to wikipedia about math). So it took time for Newton to come out with calculus. Considering software is a relatively new way to solve contemporary problems, it’ll probably take time for this watershed. Hope I’m wrong.

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