Have you guys already covered Groovy and Grails in your analyses of new JVM languages? Groovy is a language which has now matured significantly, Grails being a close follower in terms of Web App DSL / Framework built upon Spring / Hibernate.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on these compared to the rest, or else reasoning as to why it was excluded in your article – could be you just didn’t know about it.

Humm, . . . Kinda surprised not to see Groovy, and Grails mentioned

Grails is not a language guys. He didn’t mention Lift or Rails either. But it is strange to skip at least a mention of Groovy and why it’s not covered.

One minor quibble is that all three of the languages you talk about support both “pre-compiling” and script based running – even Scala.

Also, Clojure’s use of STM isn’t innovative. STM has been around awhile; Haskell has it and arguably does it better due to its monadic efffects system. What I do think is innovative is the use of multi version concurrency control, which AFAIK is unique or at list first in Clojure’s implementation of STM.

He did mention Ruby on Rails a couple of times (maybe 5?). I just was surprised about the lack of Groovy mention given that some of the more obscure languages like Ioke was mentioned.

I can see why he chose each of the 3 languages he chose to focus on. JRuby is dynamic and a different enough syntax. Scala has a great (static) type system and embraces functional programming concepts. Clojure brings the greatness of Lisp to the JVM. If you were going to focus on the diversity of the alternative JVM languages, this is a great lineup that really shows off the diversity that the JVM is capable of.

I’m not going to lie, I’m a fan of Groovy. I don’t think you need to dote on Groovy (though I think there’s plenty there worth talking about). However, I think not including Groovy in the list seriously damages the credibility of the article.

Cheers, Josh

Yes, omitting Groovy was a dumb oversight. No slight was intended. With Grails, Groovy is pretty much interchangeable with Ruby and Rails, as far as the discussion is concerned. Groovy will often be more appealing than Ruby for shops that want a dynamically-typed language that’s closer to Java (by design, of course).

Paradoxically, my personal “hunch” is that Groovy won’t be as widely used as Ruby, in the long run, precisely because it’s seen as too close to Java. Ruby seems to have better momentum now, at least. However, it’s exciting to see the main team behind Groovy now working for SpringSource! Should be a killer combination.

@James is right about interpreted Scala and STM. I only mentioned Scala interpretation in passing and didn’t include interpretation as a “deployment” option only because it’s not a complete REPL. Unlike JRuby and (I think) Clojure, the interpreter can’t handle all Scala code (e.g., if it declares packages), due to some implementation decisions. Conversely, not all Scala “scripts” can be compiled to class files. So, I think of the Scala interpreter mode as an exploration/experimentation tool, but not one I use very often for writing production scripts (where I tend to use Ruby or Bash…). Still, I didn’t make that clear.

I also glossed over the history of STM (which I don’t know well, anyway). I alluded to the fact that it has been controversial, but Clojure has made it more successful. Thanks, James, for clarifying the unique aspects of STM in Clojure.

Thanks all for keeping me honest ;)

I updated the content to give Groovy, Grails (and Django…) their due!

(Note: had to change the title to work around an apparent bug in Typo that prevented the changes from showing up!)

For a post with a goal of evaluating “new JVM languages for an established Java-based enterprise,” exluding Groovy is a HUGE oversight.

Groovy is ideal if you are a Java shop and are looking to get the productivity of these alternative, dynamic JVM languages, but you don’t want the infrastructure, training, and maintenance cost of developing and supporting multiple languages.

Interoperability: For 99% of Java code, you could rename the file .groovy and you have a Groovy program. The model is nearly identical if you are striving for interoperability and Java consistency.

Object Model: Identical, with plenty of syntactic sugar to take away the verbosity and other pain points in Java.

New “Ideas”: Metaprogramming, DSLs, XML and SQL Processing—All of these are soo easy to do in Groovy. Many frameworks are being developed in Groovy to leverage it’s flexibility.

Stability: Very robust. As solid as Java.

Performance: Very performant. Easy to be as fast as Java for compiled Groovy.

Adoption: The perfect dynamic language to try if moving from Java. Very familiar syntax (if you choose), and you can adopt specific language features as you find use for them.

Tool Support: All major Java IDEs have support for Groovy.

Deployment: Groovy is Java. Grails is Java. No infrastructure changes are necessary.

That’s just off the top of my head—I’ll let you finish the complete write up after you get your head out of your Scala book and do some learning about Groovy.

http://groovy.codehaus.org/Documentation

@Dean, It is peculiar that Scala’s script runner can’t accept package declarations. I understand why the REPL can’t, but the script runner shouldn’t face the same issues. Like you say, it’s an implementation detail that leaks a bit.

But compiling a script is always possible AFAIK. You should be able to compile any Scala script into a set of fairly ordinary .class files using the -Xscript option.

/test> cat Test.scala

println(“hello world”)

/test> scalac -Xscript Hello Test.scala

/test> java -cp /usr/share/scala/lib/scala-library.jar:. Hello

hello world

/test> scala Hello

hello world

Regarding performance. Scala is in my experience the fastest of all those languages. When looking at performance memory usage needs also to be taken into account.

Since Scala is very close to Java, memory usage should be in most cases not much much.

This is not true for the dynamic languages because an object in JRuby or Groovy for the matter, does not directly map to a Java Object.

> Finally, Clojure implements several optimizations in the > compiler that are important for functional programming, > such as optimizing tail call recursion.

That’s not quite right. Clojure provides no guarantee about tail call optimization (because JVM doesn’t support it at the moment, and won’t in JDK7 either).

It does provide a special operator, recur, which does constant space variable looping by rebinding variables.

The statement “Hence, Scala probably has marginally better performance than JRuby, in general” seems to be very misleading if you compare results of the Language Shootout. The difference is huge. While JRuby is faster than Ruby 1.8, that alone is not much of an endorsement. Pretty much anything is faster than Ruby.

@Ben, it was an oversight to omit Groovy, which I fixed in the update. Your comments were great until the last paragraph. Why the sour note? I tried to make it clear in the opening section that I picked representative languages that are currently leading contenders. Discussing Groovy to the same depth as JRuby would be redundant for the purposes of this post, which is about analyzing the characteristics of “X” vs. a set of requirements. I understand, though, that Groovy backers would have preferred that I switched Groovy for JRuby…

@James, I did not know about the -Xscript option. Thanks! Concerning running a script with scala that has package declarations, I tried it again and it didn’t work. Unless I did something wrong, it appears that the script runner works the same as the REPL, at least where package declarations are concerned.

@Jeff, my understanding is that Clojure itself does some tail call optimizing when generating byte code and they recently added “trampolining” for 2 methods that call each other recursively. So, JVM support isn’t required (but it sure would be nice!). Again, my ignorance about Clojure exceeds my ignorance about JRuby and Scala ;)

@Stefan, I was being conservative when I said “marginally”. Thanks for the link. As @Markus said, there is some unavoidable overhead that dynamic languages have and JRuby in particular has to map Ruby’s object model to Java’s and vice-versa. Hopefully, such performance gaps will decrease over time as the languages improve and the JVM is enhanced to better support them.

there’s also CAL

Clojure, like most modern Lisps, does not ever interpret anything. Even expressions entered into the REPL are compiled, then run.

Just a minor quibble: I would actually make the claim that Scala is better for internal DSL development than Ruby. Implicit conversions do a world of good (even beyond emulating open classes), and they are one feature which is simply not possible in a dynamic language.

Interop Samples

This is a section which I feel was missing from the article.

Each of the three languages reviewed have excellent support for interop with Java and moderate support for interop from Java. Just to give you a the flavor, here are some snippet showing both directions in all three languages:

JRuby to Java

import javax.swing.JFrame
import javax.swing.JButton

frame = JFrame.new 'My Window'
frame.add(JButton.new 'Push me!')

frame.default_close_operation = JFrame::EXIT_ON_CLOSE
frame.visible = true

Java to JRuby

(from the JRuby Wiki)

import javax.script.ScriptContext;
import javax.script.ScriptEngine;
import javax.script.ScriptEngineManager;
import javax.script.ScriptException;

...
ScriptEngineManager m = new ScriptEngineManager();
ScriptEngine rubyEngine = m.getEngineByName("jruby");
ScriptContext context = rubyEngine.getContext();

context.setAttribute("label", new Integer(4), ScriptContext.ENGINE_SCOPE);

try{
    rubyEngine.eval("puts 2 + $label", context);
} catch (ScriptException e) {
    e.printStackTrace();
}

Scala to Java

import javax.swing.{JFrame, JButton}

val frame = new JFrame("My Window")
frame.add(new JButton("Push Me!"))

frame.setDefaultCloseOperation(JFrame.EXIT_ON_CLOSE)
frame.setVisible(true)

Java to Scala

import scala.List;

...
List<String> strs = List.apply("Daniel", "Chris", "Joseph");
String me = strs.apply(0);

List<String> more = strs.$colon$colon("Renee");
String sis = more.apply(0);
me = more.apply(1);

As a minor plug, I have done some work in directly integrating JRuby and Scala. Using my minor frameworks, it is possible to intuitively call JRuby from within Scala (no need to use the Java 6 scripting framework directly) as well as easily integrate with Scala higher-order methods and operator overloading.

• JRuby Interop DSL in Scala
• Integrating Scala into JRuby

Clojure to Java

(import '(javax.swing (JFrame, JButton)))

(doto (new JFrame "My Window")
  (add (new JButton "Push Me!"))
  (setDefaultCloseOperation
    (JFrame/EXIT_ON_CLOSE))
  (setVisible true))

Java to Clojure

; Clojure source
(ns com.mycompany.MyTest (:gen-class))

(defn -testMethod1 []
  (println "In testMethod1"))

(defn -sayHello [to]
  (println (str "Hello, " to "!")))

// Java source
import com.mycompany.MyTest;

...
MyTest test = new MyTest();
test.testMethod1();
test.sayHello("Daniel");

Extras

Not shown in these examples is the fact that all of these languages support class inheritence as part of their interop.

• A JRuby class can extend a Java class or mixin a Java interface just as if it were a regular Ruby class or module (respectively).
• Java classes can’t really inherit from Ruby classes. At least, not usefully.

• Scala classes can natively inherit from Java classes
• Java classes can natively inherit from Scala classes

• Clojure doesn’t really have classes, but it can create dynamic proxies for interfaces, and its :gen-class syntax provides support for inheritence.
• Don’t even go there… I’m assuming that you could probably hack something up, but extending a Clojure :gen-class in Java is bound to be fairly painful.

All in all, Scala has the best interop of any JVM language (well, Groovy’s interop is about equivalent except where things like generics come into play); but neither JRuby and Clojure are too far behind.

@Dean,

Scala automatically optimizes away direct tail recursive calls, although you have to be careful because methods can’t generally directly call themselves due to the nature of virtual dispatch. Clojure has a construct called “recur” that does direct tail recursion, but otherwise does not automatically optimize tail calls. Clojure recently added an optional trampolining construct for general tail calls to the language and Scala allows you to define one in your own code (an officially blessed version is likely in the next release). Both language communities curse the JVM’s lack of a tail call instruction as found in the .NET CLR since what we’re using right now is a bunch of band-aids and hacks.

For the sake of completeness I’ll mention that two JVM based Schemes also do tail calls. Kawa can automatically trampoline everything and SISC uses its own heap based stack instead of the JVM stack. Both solutions have performance and Java interop issues which is why you don’t find them in Clojure and Java.

@Ben: “Performance: Very performant. Easy to be as fast as Java for compiled Groovy.” You are incorrect. For most things groovy is 3 – 5x less performant. In some cases, even when optimized, it’s several orders of magnitude. I’ve seen this in real life as well as it appears to be the same in the debian language shootout. ( http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&;lang=java&lang2=groovy ) <- link is busted and i don’t wanna learn the kind of markup for this blog (just cut n paste)

here’s another, Ada!

http://www.adahome.com/Resources/Ada_Java.html

That page says “there are two Ada-to-JVM compilers. Intermetrics (AppletMagic) and Aonix (ObjectAda) have re-targeted their Ada 95 compilers to generate j-code.”

Although I am having trouble finding additional details…

Jython – The first non-Java language ported to the JVM

@Daniel, Thanks for the detailed comment on interoperability. It makes my “handwaving” points concrete.

@James, Thanks for clarifying details about recursion handling.

@all, Thanks for the spirited debate and for filling in many details. My goal isn’t to make the case for one language or another, since each team will have different circumstances, etc. Rather, I want to offer suggestions for how to do that investigation for yourself.

Thank you for your analysis. Robert Tolksdorf has been maintaining an expanding list of languages implemented on the JVM since at least 2003, although not with the insights that you provide in your article: http://www.is-research.de/info/vmlanguages/index.html

Seems a little to mention Ioke. Pretty sure it doesn’t have a Java “FFI” yet…

You say “Ruby does not fully support functional programming”. What functional programming features does Ruby not have?

You say “Ruby does not fully support functional programming”. What functional programming features does Ruby not have?

@Paul, (I just noticed your comment/question.) My statement was perhaps a little strong, because you could make it about other languages that are considered “functional”.

Ruby is obviously an OO language with some functional features, like blocks. In that sense, it’s a hybrid sort of like Scala, but weaker in its emphasis on functional programming.

However, the “biggies” that come to mind are 1) Ruby methods aren’t first class, although blocks & Procs are, 2) It doesn’t provide mechanisms to promote immutability (using “attr_reader” only helps, but the object it refers to isn’t automatically immutable), 3) It doesn’t have the same strong pattern matching facilities built in that a typical functional language would have. However, libraries like the Case gem make up for this as I blogged more recently.

Otherwise, a few features that aren’t “pure”, but are also true of some other hybrid languages include 1) Ruby doesn’t promote any mechanisms to encourage side-effect free functions, 2) Ruby didn’t have tail-call optimization until very recently (1.9.1 YARV and JRuby, I believe) and it’s not as complete as, say, Haskell’s recursion optimizations, 3) The libraries have some functional support (like map, inject, etc. methods), but not a full set of functionally-oriented data structures and functions.

These are all quibbles, really. You can do a lot of functional programming in Ruby. I did a talk about this at last year’s RubyConf. http://aspectprogramming.com/papers/BetterRubyThroughFP_v5.pdf

Jython, or JPython as it was called then, where started in 1997 as you say, can not have been the first alternative language for the Java VM, as NetRexx was released by IBM in 1996 already.

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He originally left Groovy completely out of the picture and I would have thought Groovy has had more acceptance simply because those new to the language can pick up on it bit by bit as they move from Java.

I’m not a big fan of Clojure and I’m surprised it has gotten as much recognition as it has. Maybe I just need to play with it more. ((()))()(()((()(())()(()

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