Object Mentor Blog: "Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel

"Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel

Uncle Bob — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:34:29 -0600

I was riding my exercise bike, listening to Stack Overflow #38 when I heard Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky say “Quality just doesn’t matter that much.” I nearly fell off my bike.

I mean this is Joel Spolsky right? His buddy Jeff makes this incredibly dumb statement and Joel grunts his approval. WTF?

This is the kind of idiotic statement I would expect to hear from junior hackers, or people who haven’t written very much code. You simply cannot deliver software products for more than a few years and think that quality doesn’t matter very much.

Now I need to be fair. I don’t think Jeff meant to say this exactly the way it came out. Just before he said it, he said that lately he had been getting less and less concerned with code hygiene. So possibly he was trying to say that code quality just doesn’t matter that much.

But that doesn’t make me feel any better; because one thing you learn after four decades of coding is that code quality matters one hell of a lot. So to respond to Jeff I’ll simply fall back on the old saw “Faithful in little, faithful in much.” In other words, if you can’t keep your code clean, no way can you keep your systems clean.

So I think the fairest thing I can say about this is that Jeff was probably saying things he didn’t really mean because he felt his mentor, Joel, was approving.

To make matters worse, all of this was preceded by a truncated rant by Joel about TDD. Joel and Jeff were agreeing that unit testing was really not very important and that testing is often a waste of time. (I’m starting to wonder if anyone should be using any of their products.)

Again, to be fair I think Joel was playing devil’s advocate a bit. He was saying that it’s a waste to write tests for every last little thing. This is certainly true. However the discipline of TDD does not recommend the position that Joel was resisting. TDD specifically tells us not to bother testing getters and setters and itty bitty methods that simply can’t fail. So Joel clearly didn’t understand what he was arguing against.

Joel went on to say that 100% code coverage by unit tests is a waste. I agree. I think that 100% code coverage is unachievable. However, I think that it is not a waste to drive that number up as high as practicable. For example, I keep FitNesse at about 90%. This requires very little effort on my part and pays back enormous dividends. Again, I think Joel was arguing without reasoning. Yes, 100% is silly; but 90%, or even 95%, is not.

Joel went on to complain about the fragile test problem which is that as you make changes to your code, some of your tests naturally fail. Joel quoted the statistic 10%. That’s laughable, and indicates that Joel has never tried to to gain anything beyond a surface understanding of TDD (a failing typical of business wonks). If you design your tests such that 10% of them fail due to a single point change, then you need a new career. Test design, like any other part of software design, is about decoupling.

I’m not religious about TDD. I consider it a discipline worth following. I don’t write all my tests first. Some small number of them are simply more convenient to write after the code. There is even some code I don’t write tests for at all, because it’s just not worth it. But those are exceptions to the rule. The vast majority of the code I write, I write test first. (And no, Joel, this isn’t a waste of my time.)

At some point in the discussion, Joel took on the SOLID principles. He said that these principles are so extremely bureaucratic that they must have come from the mind of someone who doesn’t write a lot of code. He also used the word “idiotic”.

Again, this is a symptom of someone who has focussed on business and lost his technical chops. Euclid once told a king, “There is no royal road to Geometry.” There is no executive summary that explains the SOLID principles well enough that you can comment on them critically.

I won’t go into his exegesis of the principles because it’s, frankly, embarrassing. I’ll simply say that I’ve been a coder for 40 years. I’ve written many systems taking them from inception to delivery and into maintenance. I have shipped one hell of a lot of product. And if anyone wants to know how much code I’ve written over the last six months, they are free to inspect my github repository.

Joel said that the SOLID principle aren’t “agile”. (sigh). Everybody and his uncle thinks he knows what the term “agile” means. But I’m the guy who called the meeting where the name “agile” was picked. I’ve been writing about Agile development since the term Agile development was created. I think I know what is Agile and what isn’t. And I think I have the authority to override Joel on this one. Joel, the SOLID principles are agile.

I think that maintaining your technical chops is a full time job. For that reason I have avoided becoming a business wonk. I hire people to do that for me so I can keep my technical skills as sharp as possible and remain relevant to my profession. I don’t believe I can offer technical advice unless I am living that technical advice.

You see, I think quality matters. I think the quality of my code matters, even at the smallest scale. I think the quality of my systems matters. I think the quality of my tests matters. And… I think the quality of my advice matters.

""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by leaflets

Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:31:12 -0600

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by Camisas Femininas

Wed, 08 Feb 2012 13:10:44 -0600

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by maria171

Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:50:17 -0600

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by maria171

Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:46:06 -0600

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by maria171

Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:42:16 -0600

excellent, I agree completely.

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Wed, 08 Feb 2012 06:15:44 -0600

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:44:37 -0600

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by edgar

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:17:53 -0600

He (Spolsky) also backs off on his criticism of SOLID and admits he didn’t know what he was talking about in Stackover #39.

""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by edgar

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:15:11 -0600

Yeah, you are right, Quality matters.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:14:13 -0600

Yeah, you are right, Quality matters.

""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by supercuts

Fri, 03 Feb 2012 22:03:58 -0600

This is the perfect blog for anyone who wants to know about this topic. You know so much its almost hard to argue with you (not that I really would want…HaHa). You definitely put a new spin on a subject that’s been written about for years. Great stuff, just great!

""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by dog registry

Wed, 01 Feb 2012 15:27:30 -0600

Quality matters, but early on speed tends to be important too. You can always rewrite the code when you have more time.

""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by Laptops

Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:07:38 -0600

Your blog post raises some interesting points and as they say quality is better than quantity

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Tue, 31 Jan 2012 02:09:11 -0600

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by press release distribution services

Sat, 28 Jan 2012 03:51:02 -0600

What I don’t understand is how you’re not even more popular than you are now. You’re just so intelligent. You know so much about this subject, made me think about it from so many different angles. Its like people aren’t interested unless it has something to do with Lady Gaga! Your stuffs great. Keep it up!

""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by Magnus Strømnes Bøe

Thu, 26 Jan 2012 06:00:53 -0600

It would be interesting to discuss quality requirements in terms of amount of use / users.

When any given application or website for instance is released the cost per user / use must be taken into account.

If there are few users on a specific type of cell phone, there is no economic interest in testing on that unit.

Great post and discussion by the way.

""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by psk

Thu, 26 Jan 2012 01:07:57 -0600

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by Bill

Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:48:38 -0600

I started out as a mainframe programmer in the 80’s… and with 10,000 line programs, I felt quality more than important… it was a necessity for the poor guy that has to maintain my code 5 years later. I still think quality matters. Search Engines consider things like code to text ratios. I think your final statement said it all. Thanks for being a true professional that takes pride in his work.

Now I do search engine optimization out of Grand Rapids and enjoy a well structured site - makes my job much easier.

www.on-targetseo.com

Please don’t judge me by my own site as it is built with a WYSIWYG as I still only know Cobol.

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Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:23:57 -0600

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Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:41:55 -0600

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by ps

Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:04:31 -0600

Good stufff… keep it up..

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""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by weight loss spray

Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:57:51 -0600

Great post!! Keep up the good work – I’m sure someday soon, someone will be doing an Ada Lovelace post about you

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Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:14:36 -0600

Oh my goodness! You’re so right! I really don’t think anyone’s put it that way before! You must be an expert on this because you just made it so easy to understand, made me want to learn more about it! Do you, like, study this subject because you seem to be so in tune with the issue? Keep it up, man. You’ve got a great mind for it!

""Quality Doesn't Matter That Much" -- Jeff and Joel" by SAP HCM

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:23:32 -0600

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